![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 4355 to 4379 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by brian green on June 20, 2003, at 0:32:48
In reply to Re: grogginess and insomnia, posted by countess on June 18, 2003, at 18:53:54
hi countess, like mercedes, i take my 225 dose in the am, around 7, with bfast. then i take my 150 at noon or so with lunch. i have been on this schedule for a week or so, and i don't have fatigue or insomnia. give it a try!
Brian
Posted by brian green on June 20, 2003, at 0:35:48
In reply to Re: grogginess and insomnia » countess, posted by mercedes on June 20, 2003, at 0:27:30
mercedes, curious about how you are feeling after 2 months. the magical 8 weeks! do you feel good and like your old self, a part of your old self, or how. I am at about 6 weeks and still have some down days when something important hits me hard.
B
Posted by mercedes on June 20, 2003, at 0:49:16
In reply to new symptom: inordinate sweating!!, posted by zinya on June 16, 2003, at 18:17:37
Suzy, I read your message at the bottom of someone else's message and then went back to find it but could not find.
I think you said you were afraid of this drug. I was on 37.5 mg for about a year then changed psyc. dr. and gradually increased to 300 mgs. Tell me what is it that you are afraid of. Maybe you can get people with positive input. I've been on other anti-anxiety, anti-depressants and Effexor seems to be ok for me. I can feel happy most the time, and yet sometimes I still cry alone. I've had to play around with the time of day to take it, so as I can sleep. This med. seems to be the best one so far There are side effects but they can be different depending on your chemistry.
I too fear taking any new med, but I think this one has helped my anxioty/dep, more.
p.s. your english is perfect....ok? mercedes
Posted by onelouder on June 20, 2003, at 6:13:03
In reply to Getting rid of sexual side-effects of Effexor ? , posted by Butterfly on May 7, 2002, at 12:37:21
> Hi
> I have started treatment with Effexor XR for GAD a week ago, and could already feel improvement on second day.
> But among other related side-effects (nausea - gone after 2 days - , insomnia, sweating) I am also experiencing undesired sexual effects (delayed ejaculation) and wondering if anyone who has experienced this in early stages of the treatment has seen this probelm resolve with time, -and if so, after how much time.
>
> Thanks for your input
>
> Butterfly
>
Hi there,
I have now been on Effexor XR 75mg once a day for over 2 weeks. The first 3 days, I got the shakes, headaches, sickness, dizzy etc. I am also having delayed ejaculation. Funny (not really) thing is though, my depressed state had me being very promiscuous and I considered myself a stud anyway (or so I was told)
Now, as I am sure others have found, I can carry on even longer! Seriously though, I don't know if this is a good thing or not? I am now less impatient and seem to be enjoying life, even though, we all have various, stresses and anxieties?
Keep the threads going, as they have helped me immensely :-)
Posted by melley on June 20, 2003, at 6:45:41
In reply to Re: no more effexor » melley, posted by brian green on June 19, 2003, at 21:08:47
> I had a friend on it a couple of years ago, and I remembver her telling me it made her feel that way, like it was impossible for her to cry and she walked around sorta zombie like. That eventually went away after she had a few weeks under her belt.
I realize I am sounding like a complete naysayer. I should add that effexor saved my life last year. I think for me what happened is that the more it was increased the more sensitive to it I became with my particular body chemistry; yet the lower doses weren't enough after awhile. That could well happen with this new med. sigh. I am today feeling rocky. Think it is the withdrawal from the last dose of effexor. I will be glad when this part is over. I think if it persists I might take some dramamine...and hopefully a nap. Last day of school!:)
Melissa
Posted by KimberlyDi on June 20, 2003, at 8:12:48
In reply to Re: Insomnia » KimberlyDi, posted by kalyb on June 19, 2003, at 15:53:10
It could be just her (p-doc's) opinion? Or she simply knows, as I've learned, that for chronic insomniacs, using Benedryl every night for a prolonged period of time can result in developing a tolerance to it. Don't get me wrong, Benedryl is wonderful. I've spent a fortune on it over the past 10 years. Unfortunately for me, Effexor's SE's were stronger than Benedryl's.
> > Saw my new p-doc today......She prescribed Trazadone when I asked about it. She said Benedryl is not a long-lasting solution for the insomnia.
> ---------------------------------
> That's most interesting.
>
> I saw my pdoc yesterday after being on Effexor for 5 weeks. I've been having insomnia too, and have been taking diphenhydramine (USA=Benadryl / UK = Nytol) for about a week with great results. I fall asleep within about twenty minutes when I go to bed.
>
> I asked him about the Nytol. He said it was perfectly fine to take for as long as I want, if it works that well for me. He reassured me that there were no issues with addiction or dependence on it. In fact he seemed impressed by my initiative (although of course, I owe all you on PB for suggesting it!!!).
>
> Could it be just a difference between the USA and UK? My pdoc wouldn't prescribe me something he didn't think I really need, he's being paid by the National Health Service not by me or my insurance, and isn't being bombarded by drug advertising quite as much. Sorry if that sounds cynical. :)
>
> But I am surprised that the milder, cheaper, proven Benadryl (diphenhydramine) "is not a long term solution" for you, but is considered perfect for me the other side of the Atlantic Ocean....?
>
> Kalyb xx
Posted by KimberlyDi on June 20, 2003, at 8:40:57
In reply to Re: Insomnia re: Effexor, prescribed Trazadone tod » KimberlyDi, posted by zinya on June 19, 2003, at 16:21:01
Zinya, actually my dosage was sort of "self adjusted" in the beginning. I expected my new p-doc to be mad, but she said my regular doc had prescribed the Effexor incorrectly (once a day) since it wasn't the XR kind (my insurance won't cover that).
I was on a XR starter pack (freebie!) with 37.5 mg 1 week, 75 mg 2nd week, and given a 75mg prescription. When I finished the starter pack & went to the Non-XR prescription, I noticed that by the afternoon, the Effexor wasn't working anymore. I started taking 1/2 of the 75mg tablet in the afternoons in addition to the 75mg tablet in the morning. After a few days, I was up to 75mg in the afternoon as well. By the time I saw the pdoc I was on 150 daily anyways (for at least 4 days). My anxiety level was building so she bumped me up to 200mg a day. It was my impression that lower levels of the XR version is equal to higher levels of the Non-XR version.
Funny note: She asked how many times I had been married. My answer "4 (yes four)". She asked if all of them ended in divorce. I answered "The first 3 ended in divorce. I didn't kill any of them." P-doc busted out laughing.
> This sounds good, Kim ... cuz you sound good,.... solid. Hopeful. Those are good things.
>
> I'm curious: how long out of the 21 days were you on the 150 before she bumped you up?
>
> And did she say what her criteria were for bumping you up?
>
> wishing you well!
> zinya
Posted by KimberlyDi on June 20, 2003, at 8:53:40
In reply to Re: Insomnia re: Effexor, prescribed Trazadone today, posted by Susy on June 19, 2003, at 22:45:36
Susy, Hi! Sorry your post got lost or redirected. What's going wrong in your life? Are you severely depressed or suffering from anxiety? Do you have a diagnosis? Paxil isn't the only med out there. Your English seems pretty good to me. Hang in there!
Kim
> Hi, I am new to the list, but I did send a message and didn't receive any answer =(
> Maybe I am in another thread? The title was I am scared of this med, HELP! I said that I don't feel strong enough to try Paxil again; that I am very sentisitive for meds, etc...
> Maybe I'm doing something wrong to get the message post? Or maybe somebody deleted cause the things I said? Or maybe cause my English is not perfect....I also need to learn from you guys, so please let me know if you read this message so I can explain.....
> Thanks =) Susy
>
>
Posted by KimberlyDi on June 20, 2003, at 8:56:55
In reply to Re: grogginess and insomnia » countess, posted by brian green on June 20, 2003, at 0:32:48
LOL Brian, I thought you said "i take my 225 dose in the arm!" I was like "Someone is injecting Effexor?" Man, I need glasses. Kim
> hi countess, like mercedes, i take my 225 dose in the am, around 7, with bfast. then i take my 150 at noon or so with lunch. i have been on this schedule for a week or so, and i don't have fatigue or insomnia. give it a try!
> Brian
Posted by brian green on June 20, 2003, at 9:44:55
In reply to Re: grogginess and insomnia, posted by KimberlyDi on June 20, 2003, at 8:56:55
Kimberly, glad to see a laugh. that would be quite a site to see me injecting every morning. of course, if that is the only way the stuff came...let me know how things are going. the laugh at least lets me know this A.M. you are in good spirits (or have you been injecting EFF also?)
I am ok, except for the work issue and the prospect of not having something I would enjoy there (not sure that you caught the fact that they cannot "carry" me anymore, and they stripped me of my management job)because of my being in the hospital with the Dep. They think it was something I had control over. But everyone is encouraging me to use this time to get well first of all, then get out there and pursue what I want out of the second half of my life. I am trying.
B
Posted by Anton on June 20, 2003, at 9:57:22
In reply to Re: Getting rid of sexual side-effects of Effexor , posted by onelouder on June 20, 2003, at 6:13:03
> > Hi
> > I have started treatment with Effexor XR for GAD a week ago, and could already feel improvement on second day.
> > But among other related side-effects (nausea - gone after 2 days - , insomnia, sweating) I am also experiencing undesired sexual effects (delayed ejaculation) and wondering if anyone who has experienced this in early stages of the treatment has seen this probelm resolve with time, -and if so, after how much time.
> >
> > Thanks for your input
> >
> > Butterfly
> >
> Hi there,
> I have now been on Effexor XR 75mg once a day for over 2 weeks. The first 3 days, I got the shakes, headaches, sickness, dizzy etc. I am also having delayed ejaculation. Funny (not really) thing is though, my depressed state had me being very promiscuous and I considered myself a stud anyway (or so I was told)
> Now, as I am sure others have found, I can carry on even longer! Seriously though, I don't know if this is a good thing or not? I am now less impatient and seem to be enjoying life, even though, we all have various, stresses and anxieties?
> Keep the threads going, as they have helped me immensely :-)
I've been on effexor for almost a week now, and was having problems getting it on with my gf, i just wasn't interested, AND then I went out and got a big ass lamb kebab for dinner from this turkish resturant and about half an hour later I was totally turned on for some reason, dunno why but it worked cool. lol
Posted by KimberlyDi on June 20, 2003, at 11:08:21
In reply to Re: grogginess and insomnia » KimberlyDi, posted by brian green on June 20, 2003, at 9:44:55
Brian,
I'm sorry to hear about your job. I missed only 1 week because of hospitalization this time last year. Work probably benefited from my disorders because being a workaholic was one of my coping methods "keeping too busy to think". It isn't easy getting better. The world is opening up, with its infinite possibilities. I've always been "all talent, no motivation". If I applied myself right now, could I spread my wings and fly? I'm almost afraid of success, because the higher I go, the farther I have to fall.
Good luck! Kim
Posted by brian green on June 20, 2003, at 12:05:08
In reply to New Effexor SE's, re-joining life, a new future » brian green, posted by KimberlyDi on June 20, 2003, at 11:08:21
Kimberly, I know that there are all kinds of possiblities out there. I have a lot of talent also, but for the past 2 years since my mom has been sick, it has exhibited itself only in spurts. A new boss in the past few months who is real hands on (a complete opposite of the previous one)who questioned everything I did, and disagreeing the most of the time, did not make things easier. Of course, with the dep, my mom, my job, my cash flow - well needless to say my self esteem was in the hole. I remember the day I checked myself into the hospital. I was in such a brain fog, I can't believe I drove myself that far. It is amazing to me that EFF has made such an improvement in me. For me, it rules! I cannot wait to be at 8 weeks to feel even better. (at least I hope). I am confident with the EFF and the therapy, I am going to be rejoining life with much awaited gusto!
Thanks for your time,
Brian
Posted by bookgurl99 on June 20, 2003, at 22:07:13
In reply to Re: I have a moral dilemma, HELP!, posted by NThompson on June 19, 2003, at 15:26:26
if you are 100% sure that her kids are not in danger -- that you would never harm them or abandon them due to your depression -- then you are not obligated to tell.
yet, you feel that this is something that you would want to be told -- presumably so you could find a different babysitter. maybe that line of thought -- which essentially says that you're not worthy as a babysitter -- says more about how you feel about yourself and your own worthiness now that you've survived a suicide attempt.
can you forgive _yourself_ for facing depression and suicidal ideation? can you attribute worth to yourself? i know it's hard to do when you're depressed, but maybe that is what needs to be worked on here more than the moral issue.
as for the moral question, maybe i see it differently because i don't have kids of my own. but i have a feeling that you can trust yourself not to 'go crazy' with the youths around.
if you feel like you're just not up to babysitting right now, then you can just use that -- not feeling well -- as your excuse to get out of it, and provide the mom with details later if you feel more comfortable.
books
Posted by Susy on June 21, 2003, at 0:00:16
In reply to Susy needs help! » Susy, posted by KimberlyDi on June 20, 2003, at 8:53:40
> Susy, Hi! Sorry your post got lost or redirected. What's going wrong in your life? Are you severely depressed or suffering from anxiety? Do you have a diagnosis? Paxil isn't the only med out there. Your English seems pretty good to me. Hang in there!
>
> KimHi again, you guys almost make me cry;lately I feel everything doble; thanks for your support.Brian, Mercedes, Kim, Kimberly, all of you: I don't even know where to start. Ok,I have been on Xanax this last time for a year already,for the anxiety and the Panic Attacks but it is not helping anymore =( I feel confused; somedays I don't feel like doing anything, not even answer the phone. So I went to this Dr. She gave me Paxil CR, 25mg; I took it, and I had the strongest panic attack I ever had!!! I wasn't even able to control my own thoughts I felt like if I was on LSD or something =( and not able to sleep with my heart racing all night. Then I went and told the Dr. again, she said it is ok if I take the Paxil along with Xanax until the Paxil kicks in. But Iam so affraid. It's been 2 weeks already and I am still thinking about it everyday.Still Keeping my xanax dose. Somedays I feel with no energy at all but still very agitated inside.I think I have develop some kind of Phobia to meds, all are very strong for me, and that makes me feel very bad, what if I have to go to the hospital and they give me something I can't stand? I envy you guys taking your meds everyday. Should I give it a try with St. John's Wort? but, could I mix it with Xanax?
What do you recommend?
Will continue in next post so I don't make it very long.......Suzy
>
> > Hi, I am new to the list, but I did send a message and didn't receive any answer =(
> > Maybe I am in another thread? The title was I am scared of this med, HELP! I said that I don't feel strong enough to try Paxil again; that I am very sentisitive for meds, etc...
> > Maybe I'm doing something wrong to get the message post? Or maybe somebody deleted cause the things I said? Or maybe cause my English is not perfect....I also need to learn from you guys, so please let me know if you read this message so I can explain.....
> > Thanks =) Susy
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Anton on June 21, 2003, at 2:11:04
In reply to Re: Susy needs help!, posted by Susy on June 21, 2003, at 0:00:16
> > Susy, Hi! Sorry your post got lost or redirected. What's going wrong in your life? Are you severely depressed or suffering from anxiety? Do you have a diagnosis? Paxil isn't the only med out there. Your English seems pretty good to me. Hang in there!
> >
> > Kim
>
> Hi again, you guys almost make me cry;lately I feel everything doble; thanks for your support.Brian, Mercedes, Kim, Kimberly, all of you: I don't even know where to start. Ok,I have been on Xanax this last time for a year already,for the anxiety and the Panic Attacks but it is not helping anymore =( I feel confused; somedays I don't feel like doing anything, not even answer the phone. So I went to this Dr. She gave me Paxil CR, 25mg; I took it, and I had the strongest panic attack I ever had!!! I wasn't even able to control my own thoughts I felt like if I was on LSD or something =( and not able to sleep with my heart racing all night. Then I went and told the Dr. again, she said it is ok if I take the Paxil along with Xanax until the Paxil kicks in. But Iam so affraid. It's been 2 weeks already and I am still thinking about it everyday.Still Keeping my xanax dose. Somedays I feel with no energy at all but still very agitated inside.I think I have develop some kind of Phobia to meds, all are very strong for me, and that makes me feel very bad, what if I have to go to the hospital and they give me something I can't stand? I envy you guys taking your meds everyday. Should I give it a try with St. John's Wort? but, could I mix it with Xanax?
> What do you recommend?
> Will continue in next post so I don't make it very long.......Suzy
> >
> > > Hi, I am new to the list, but I did send a message and didn't receive any answer =(
> > > Maybe I am in another thread? The title was I am scared of this med, HELP! I said that I don't feel strong enough to try Paxil again; that I am very sentisitive for meds, etc...
> > > Maybe I'm doing something wrong to get the message post? Or maybe somebody deleted cause the things I said? Or maybe cause my English is not perfect....I also need to learn from you guys, so please let me know if you read this message so I can explain.....
> > > Thanks =) Susy
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>Hi susy, I think it would be okay to try st johns wort first, maybe add a bit of 5-htp with it too, that's a good natural solution, i know what you mean about the meds feeling like lsd and stuff sometimes..if you're real sensitive to them like me I seriously would try st johns wort first and eat healthy so you get enough vitamins and stuff.
Posted by mercedes on June 21, 2003, at 2:50:59
In reply to Re: grogginess and insomnia » mercedes, posted by brian green on June 20, 2003, at 0:35:48
Brian, I too have some down days but generally I'm up more than down. I'm also affected if someone critizes me, or if I feel left out. I can feel very depressed but after a few tears, I just tell myself, I don't care what anybody thinks of me. I don't need negative in my life. So I do something that makes me proud of accomplishing something. I have to make a to-do list. Sometimes it's: get up; get dressed, feed dogs. If I accomplish one thing on my list, I'm happy.I pride myself in one thing I got done instead of degrading myself for not accomplishing the other. I just add it to my next day's list.
Look for my new entry titled...driving for 1st time to L.A. by myself, after 6 years.....
mercedes
Posted by mercedes on June 21, 2003, at 3:51:32
In reply to Re: Susy needs help!, posted by Susy on June 21, 2003, at 0:00:16
Susy, I too am on Xanex, which calms me, however I've had severe panic attacks where my eyes get this crossed eye vision (I have not heard anyone say this about their panic attacks yet). After I have these attacks, which leave me with slurred speach, a very bad headache, and then I fall asleep for a few hours, I usually don't remember much of anything that happened right before the attack.
The combination of the xanex and effexor have decreased these attacks but it only takes a little stress or if someone says negative things to me, or my 23 year old son upsets me, I usually get these attacks a few days later. I hate them.
I also feared taking any medication for the first time. The strongest med I'd ever taken was tylenol, until I developed PTSD. I was so scared to take a new medication that I would ask a freind to stay with me until the med took effect. And I've tried alot of them. Paxil did not work for me. I recently tried Gabitrol. YUK, I had dizzyness, headaches, stomach pains and shooting needles coming out of my skin, like ants crawling all over me. I stopped taking it and called my Psyc dr and told him I couldn't take it. I also tried St Johns Wart several years ago and the box is in a drawer somewhere. I don't remember why I stopped. I recomend you read up on it first and talk to your Dr. first.
Mercedes
Posted by mercedes on June 21, 2003, at 4:16:05
In reply to Re: Susy needs help! » Susy, posted by mercedes on June 21, 2003, at 3:51:32
Hi everyone, I'd like to tell you all that I have have had, not only PTSD, Panic Disorder, Anxioty attacks, agraphobia, for the past six years. This has prevented me from driving freeways. I used to live in L.A. county. When my driving got real scary, my carpoolers used to drive my car when it was my week to drive. My family lived in central CA, and I was forced to take the bus or train yet I had two cars in the driveway.
Tomorrow, I'm driving from Fresno to Pomona CA (about a 5 hour drive) for the first time in 6 years. I just told myself that I am not going to let this illness control me any longer. Also, the medications I'm taking now have me at a comfort level (effexor and xanex). So, pray for me, that I make it. My son and daugter-n-law are having their baby girl 06/23. I'm going to help my daughter n law after her cesarian. But none the less, my challenge is, making the drive. I'm tired of being in this prison and tired of my fear of driving. I'm going to do it!
Pray for me, and I'll be back on this message board in about a week or so, God willing. I'll miss you all. I think being a part of this support system has helped me make the decision to drive again. Knowing others feel or have felt like me, makes me feel I'm not alone.
Sincerely,
Scared but determined.....mercedes
Posted by brian green on June 21, 2003, at 4:26:17
In reply to Re: grogginess and insomnia » brian green, posted by mercedes on June 21, 2003, at 2:50:59
M - - cannot wait for that to happen, I will watch the news! Thanks for the insight.
Posted by Rickey on June 21, 2003, at 4:53:47
In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14
Am on day 19 (75 mg). Sweating has stopped and am feeling great. One thing I have noticed is my dreams. I have always have had vivid dreams. I think one reason is that I sleep with the TV on. I'm sure that triggers many dream themes. Most of the time they were not very pleasent. Was always being threatened, lots of running etc. For the past few weeks when I waken and remember the dreams they are always "sweet dreams" very pleasent. Wake with a smile. In fact a few nights ago I had a dream that I was attending my own funeral. But it was not scary. Was a peaceful experience and even funny in parts. Was wondering if there is any connection with taking the drug.
Posted by brian green on June 21, 2003, at 5:14:28
In reply to Driving a problem?, posted by mercedes on June 21, 2003, at 4:16:05
well merc, you have the perfect name for it. and I can tell by the vibes you are sending over here in alabama that you area ready. I hope you have a great time, you inspire me to take a next step today! I will let you know what it is when I wake up fully. you are the best! take plenty of your meds with you!!!!!Let us know when you get back, and we will expect to see the baby's photo so be thinking about how you can scan or whatever.
Brian
Posted by brian green on June 21, 2003, at 5:20:17
In reply to Effexor XR Dreams........., posted by Rickey on June 21, 2003, at 4:53:47
Rickey, I have not really experienced any unusual dreams since being on EFF, however I have been fine tuning on something to make me sleep, and one of those had me on top of a submarine walking a rope ladder with the other men, some of them my friends. We bought tomatoes on the way back at the curb market. Nah, nothing weird.
Brian
Posted by CherC68 on June 21, 2003, at 8:45:01
In reply to Driving a problem?, posted by mercedes on June 21, 2003, at 4:16:05
Gosh, I haven't been online in 1-1/2 days and I've missed so much. Suzy, I'm so very sorry that I haven'responded. I don't know much about Paxil, my friend takes it and she swears by it. No side effects for her except losing weight, which is something I could use, but...Everyone on here is so very nice, and keep writing. Something here is bound to click, or someone here is bound to come up with something to help you out.
Mercedes, You can do it! Try to keep relaxed. I myself have always been afraid to drive expressways, but I get through it by listening to soothing music, Enigma, etc. and keeping your determination to help your daughter-in-law and see your new Grandbaby will pull you through. Just keep your eyes open, and drive, don't let the fear drive you, and know that we are all thinking about you, and I'll be praying for you!
Hugs, Cher
Posted by zinya on June 21, 2003, at 13:46:30
In reply to Driving a problem?, posted by mercedes on June 21, 2003, at 4:16:05
hi Mercedes,
how exciting for you - will this be your first grandchild?
i quite empathize with your sense of agoraphobia... I've come to realize in recent weeks that i may have become agoraphobic at least to some degree myself during this depression... I don't feel panic about going out but i feel a sense of fatigue that takes over, sometimes in the throes of dressing to leave for somewhere and, if it's at all optional, i wind up deciding not to go, repeatedly. It is some sort of anxiety but kind of generalized...
It's a bit ironic to me cuz some years back my work led me to being aware of some research on agoraphobics and one thing i know is that a breakthrough point for some at least is realizing that the trigger for panic is actually the *anticipation* of panic. Meaning it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy once one believes that a panic attack is likely to be triggered by a certain setting...
Easier said than done, by far, but this means that if it's possible to deprogram one's first thoughts that an event might lead to panic, perhaps with a ready set of counter visualizations (like recall of pleasant past road trips? or of your envisioned grandchild) to draw on might help...
Wishing you a peaceful road trip - and maybe a diverse repertoire of tapes for any mood that might strike, from belting out some oldies but goodies all the way to more mellow stuff like Cher suggested (Enigma *is* great!) ...
hugs to you!,
zinya
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.