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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 16:49:47
In reply to Re: question for johnj, posted by johnj on November 19, 2002, at 15:55:58
> No I don't take inositol, but I did try soy lecthin which is composed of choline and inositol and it messed up my sleep too. My brother who does not have an affective disorder is a health nut and he tried it and it screwed up his sleep too. We were just shooting the breeze one day and I mentioned lecthin and he said he threw it away after one day. Why do you ask about inositol? Do you take it too?
> take care
> johnjJohn, just thought I'd mention that virtually anything I take that improves my mood has an adverse effect on my sleep. So, I can't take a lot of any one thing at a time. I mix it up, this one day, that another. I'm hoping that as my body gets healthier over-all it will allow me to supplement without fear of insomnia. It seems to be going that way, but I can't yet make a firm conclusion.
Lar
Posted by bluedog on November 19, 2002, at 21:58:57
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » linkadge, posted by johnj on November 19, 2002, at 13:21:46
> At first, I crashed real early and slept all night, but after a few days of taking it I started to wake up a few times per night and had very very vivid dreaming. Started to make me a little spacey during the day. It felt like my internal clock was out of whack. Things normalized after stopping it. Strange stuff if you ask me or maybe my anxiety/depression is not related to omega 3 fatty acids. I always thought the claim that such and such % of our brains are fats so we should eat that fat to "replenish" our brains seemed a little off target. I quite doubt it is that simple.
> johnjI am curious to know if the very vivid dreaming and other problems with sleep will subside if you don't give up and decide to persist and continue to take the fish oil? In other words is it merely a matter of your body adjusting to having the correct ratios of omega-3 to omega-6 in your system?
As a comparison, every anti-depressant I have ever started on initially screwed up my sleep and gave me vivid and extremely violent dreams initially but this would settle down after 2-3 weeks when the anti-depressant effect would kick-in.
Do the native inuits (those that still eat a traditional diet) suffer from sleep diturbances due to their very high consumption of omega-3 fatty acids?
Posted by linkadge on November 20, 2002, at 5:52:04
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep, posted by bluedog on November 19, 2002, at 21:58:57
Since Fish oil is so intrecatly related to
Dopamin production and dopamine production
the vividnes of dreams, it is concievable,
however, if it did happen I can't imagine
it lasting long. Perhaps like the skin flushing
effect of niacin, which well goes away (I think)Linkadge
Posted by johnj on November 20, 2002, at 8:34:13
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep, posted by bluedog on November 19, 2002, at 21:58:57
I don't know about the eskimos, but taking a supplement is different than getting the nutrients from the direct food source. Who knows what other nutrient combinations they are getting while getting their omega 3's. Hey, if they work for you take'm but I tried twice and once as long as two weeks because I thought it would normalize. Well, it just got worse and if I slept better before it dosen't seem to be in my best interest to continue it. The spacey feeling was really disturbing and reminded me of the feeling remeron gave me. I would rather be depressed and have anxiety than to be a space cadet.
I was mostly responding to the post regarding fish oil as being called a "new AD". I should also add I took flax seed meal everything morning and had the same effect albeit at a slower development. I had good sleep for two weeks and then the fragmenting began and after 2.5 weeks I gave it up. However, it took longer to get my sleep back. For me, side effects do not really improve much after I start a med. I am the type of person that has to find somehting that either doesn't have a SE or has ones I can tolerate. I do find as I age some side effects actually have gottten a tad worse.
Maybe it works on dopamine, but too much dopamine production doesn't suit me??? I have no idea
Posted by bluedog on November 20, 2002, at 9:06:13
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » bluedog, posted by johnj on November 20, 2002, at 8:34:13
Johnj
Thanks for your input. I am not personally taking fish oil supplements (yet) but have been following the various threads on this topic with great interest.
I appreciate posts giving both positive OR negative experiences with fish oil as it gives me both sides of the coin to decide whether or not to give it a try.
I will probably decide to give it a try, but at least if I start getting adverse reactions (such as disturbed sleep) I will be prepared and know that the fish oil is a possible source of these reactions.
I agree fully with you that eating the whole foods is always better than taking a supplement as the fuel that you give your body is exactly as nature intended it(I wonder if the eskimos get the same level of omega-3 in their native diets as people that generally take fish oil supplements get or whether the supplements actually provide higher amounts of EPA and DHA than even the eskimos eat?).
Unfortunately I make lots of mistakes in my diet (usually due to a lack of discipline) and I hope that supplements will fill the gaps that I leave in my diet.
Posted by freedom2001 on November 20, 2002, at 9:18:26
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » johnj, posted by bluedog on November 20, 2002, at 9:06:13
> Johnj
>
> Thanks for your input. I am not personally taking fish oil supplements (yet) but have been following the various threads on this topic with great interest.
>
> I appreciate posts giving both positive OR negative experiences with fish oil as it gives me both sides of the coin to decide whether or not to give it a try.
>
> I will probably decide to give it a try, but at least if I start getting adverse reactions (such as disturbed sleep) I will be prepared and know that the fish oil is a possible source of these reactions.
>
> I agree fully with you that eating the whole foods is always better than taking a supplement as the fuel that you give your body is exactly as nature intended it(I wonder if the eskimos get the same level of omega-3 in their native diets as people that generally take fish oil supplements get or whether the supplements actually provide higher amounts of EPA and DHA than even the eskimos eat?).
>
> Unfortunately I make lots of mistakes in my diet (usually due to a lack of discipline) and I hope that supplements will fill the gaps that I leave in my diet.Hi, I'm taking 5000 mg of EPA+DHA but experienced no sleep disturbance. Perhaps it could be due to the trazodone I'm taking at night. I took 50 mg trazodone at night and slept peacefully.
Eskimos took 18 g (18,000 mg) of fish oils per day, far more than any supplement on the market.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 9:30:24
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » johnj, posted by bluedog on November 20, 2002, at 9:06:13
> I agree fully with you that eating the whole foods is always better than taking a supplement as the fuel that you give your body is exactly as nature intended it(I wonder if the eskimos get the same level of omega-3 in their native diets as people that generally take fish oil supplements get or whether the supplements actually provide higher amounts of EPA and DHA than even the eskimos eat?).
Estimates of Inuit daily intake of EPA and DHA are 14-20 grams/day, total. That's EPA and DHA, not crude fish oils (which have other fatty acids in them besides DHA and EPA).
Posted by bluedog on November 20, 2002, at 10:10:35
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 9:30:24
Posted by bluedog on November 20, 2002, at 10:16:53
In reply to No, posted by linkadge on November 20, 2002, at 5:52:04
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 10:52:19
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » bluedog, posted by johnj on November 20, 2002, at 8:34:13
> Maybe it works on dopamine, but too much dopamine production doesn't suit me??? I have no idea
Since we're being speculative......
Research at my alma mater has shown that suppression of REM (dreaming) sleep totally inhibits learning. Perhaps, then, dreaming is an essential component in the healing of the brain? As a means of consolidating improvements in brain function?
Posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 11:26:10
In reply to FISH OILS THE NEW GENERATION ANTI-DEPRESSANT, posted by freedom2001 on November 18, 2002, at 21:17:10
Well ?!?!
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn31/pn31p19c.htm
DDT and PCBs in cod liver oil
Recent collaborative studies have been carried out by Greenpeace Research Laboratories at Exeter University (UK) to analyse twenty two samples of fish oil. Seventeen of the samples (mostly cod liver oil) were obtained over the counter, marked as dietary supplements. This is apparently the first time that fish oils from retail outlets have been subject to independent scrutiny.
Twenty one of the samples were found to contain detectable residues of organochlorine pesticides including DDT and lindane, PCBs and hexachlorobenzene (HCB). Highest contamination involved PCBs. DDT was found in nearly all samples [at levels up to 148 µg/litre (parts per billion)] which are all below the limit specified by the US Food and Drug Administration. However, in the UK there are no specific limits set for pesticide residues for fish oils. The FAO Codex Alimentarius, (the international body which establishes maximum residue levels) appears to contain no recommendations for limits on organochlorine pesticides in fish oils, although oils derived from fish and marine mammals are recognised as a commodity group.
Greenpeace say that under certain circumstances, such as for therapeutic purposes, fish oil could contribute significantly to the dietary intake of PCBs and organochlorine pesticides. In addition, since the substances analysed in this research only form part of the possible persistent organochlorine pollutants in fish oil, other chemicals such as chlorinated dioxins, toxaphene, chlordane and heptachlor should be included in future in order to asses the full scope of the problem.MN Jacobs and PA Johnston, Greenpeace Research Laboratories, University of Exeter, EX4 4QE.
Posted by linkadge on November 20, 2002, at 12:19:02
In reply to Does anyone reall give a damn that they contain DD, posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 11:26:10
Oracle,
there are processes which effectivly remove harmful metals and toxins from fish oil. Molecular distillation is one of them. 'Now' brand uses this process. Winterization is another. Buy from a reputable brand and do a little reasearch on their quality controll. Some companies will even give you a statistical analysis of the final product.There are many plant sources of ALA and GLA but virtually none that contain EPA and DHA. As mentioned, it is proposed that some people have an inhibited ability to convert ALA to EPA and DHA.
Some people may not respond to plant Omega 3 sources and respond well to marine sources.
Note that all all mental illness studies involving Omega 3 have been done with fish oil or other marine oils.Another option is omega 3 eggs. By feeding the chickens flax oil, the chicken themselves produce EPA and DHA. EPA and DHA go right to the brain.
Linkadge
Posted by catmint on November 20, 2002, at 14:20:47
In reply to Does anyone reall give a damn that they contain DD, posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 11:26:10
Hi,
I get a brand of fish oil from Nordik Naturals that is *not* cod liver oil but purified deep sea fish oil that has been molecularly distilled. They do have a web sight and I e-mailed them about their testing. They responded promptly, and said they did third party testing and would be willing to send the reports to me. Of course, you just have to trust them I guess.The studies that you have shown us are mainly for cod liver oil. It is my understanding that the good fish oil on the market is from fish bodies, not from cod liver oil.
Your concern is appropriate, since you can't avoid toxins seeing as how industrial waste is dumped into our oceans and lakes at an alarming rate. Did you know that coal burning plants are now dumping over 40 tons of mercury per year into oceans and lakes?
Posted by johnj on November 20, 2002, at 17:00:51
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 10:52:19
Interesting, I never thought of that. I don't know if I could gut it out again, but maybe more DHA might be better?
take care
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 19:03:12
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on November 20, 2002, at 17:00:51
> Interesting, I never thought of that. I don't know if I could gut it out again, but maybe more DHA might be better?
> take care
> johnjJohn, your descriptions of the effects of meds and supplements strikes a chord with me; we seem to be very similar.
When I try a supplement, and it adversely affects my sleep, I try smaller doses, and occasionally increase them to see if I'm still as susceptible to insomnia or vivid dreams. First and foremost, I need good quality sleep. But also, over time, I seem more resilient and have a greater intellectual capacity. I was totally disabled, once upon a time, but now I can accomplish much more. Not what I once did, but hell, that might be why I got ill.
I don't know about the DHA/EPA balance, really. Even though I am a trained scientist, there's another part of me, apart from the rational-deductive. I trust my intuition. We don't have the phrase 'gut feeling' for nothing.
Posted by freedom2001 on November 21, 2002, at 0:42:26
In reply to Does anyone reall give a damn that they contain DD, posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 11:26:10
Posted by oracle on November 21, 2002, at 13:52:32
In reply to You're really pro hemp Oracle, posted by linkadge on November 20, 2002, at 12:19:02
>
> There are many plant sources of ALA and GLA but virtually none that contain EPA and DHA. As mentioned, it is proposed that some people have an inhibited ability to convert ALA to EPA and DHA.EPA's , as I understand it, are essential
fatty acids (EFA). You seem to think it is a specific acid.There are many ordanic sources of EPA's. Hemp is quite high, flax is another, not as high. Flax does have long term storage problem.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 21, 2002, at 14:40:45
In reply to Re: You're really pro hemp Oracle, posted by oracle on November 21, 2002, at 13:52:32
> >
> > There are many plant sources of ALA and GLA but virtually none that contain EPA and DHA. As mentioned, it is proposed that some people have an inhibited ability to convert ALA to EPA and DHA.
>
> EPA's , as I understand it, are essential
> fatty acids (EFA). You seem to think it is a specific acid.
>
> There are many ordanic sources of EPA's. Hemp is quite high, flax is another, not as high. Flax does have long term storage problem.Then you don't understand it. EPA is a specific fatty acid.
EPA is eicosapentaenoic acid.
eicosa is greek for twenty; penta greek for five; en(e) means double bond, or unsaturated; -oic acid means carboxylic acid.
EPA is actually all-cis-delta-5,8,11,14,17-eicosapentaenoic acid.
DHA is the 22-carbon, six-unsaturated, carboxylic acid all-cis-delta-4,7,10,13,16,19-docosahexaenoic acid.
The term EFA (Essential Fatty Acid) has no fixed meaning, but it tends to be a reference to the alpha and gamma isomers of linolenic acid. This term is being redefined through alternative meanings at the present time.
EFAs are all PUFAs (polyunsaturated fatty acids), but not all PUFAs are EFAs.
Posted by oracle on November 21, 2002, at 16:10:05
In reply to Re: You're really pro hemp Oracle, posted by Larry Hoover on November 21, 2002, at 14:40:45
> EFAs are all PUFAs (polyunsaturated fatty acids), but not all PUFAs are EFAs.
Ah! Sorry, I have been confusing the P and F, as in EFA vs EPA. The difference is clear, sorry for my confusion.
Posted by ShelliR on November 21, 2002, at 23:17:01
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 9:30:24
Hi Everybody.
Having newly started Omega-3, I'm amazed and excited at the percentage of posts regarding it on the board. It's way to early to have any clue about its effect on me, but like John, it immediately has affected my sleep. In my case, I'm having a hard time falling asleep. I'm playing around with taking it all before 4pm, still in divided doses.
Also, I was warned that if I was planning to go up to a fairly high dose, I should choose brands with a minimum of vitamin A, to avoid overaccumulation of A in my body.
I just bought Carlson lemon, with no vitamin A or D. Haven't started it yet (want to use up my Yukky Norwegian cherry flavored bottle first). The lady at the local natural apothecary promised me it has absolutely no fish taste; I'll know sometime in a week or so. It's a bit more expensive, but you have to be careful with the comparisons because the concentrations differ so.
Barbara(cat), hope you're still hovering around; it was your success story that got me to finally commit to trying it.
Take care,
Shelli
Posted by freedom2001 on November 22, 2002, at 1:20:44
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake, posted by ShelliR on November 21, 2002, at 23:17:01
> Hi Everybody.
>
> Having newly started Omega-3, I'm amazed and excited at the percentage of posts regarding it on the board. It's way to early to have any clue about its effect on me, but like John, it immediately has affected my sleep. In my case, I'm having a hard time falling asleep. I'm playing around with taking it all before 4pm, still in divided doses.
>
> Also, I was warned that if I was planning to go up to a fairly high dose, I should choose brands with a minimum of vitamin A, to avoid overaccumulation of A in my body.
>
> I just bought Carlson lemon, with no vitamin A or D. Haven't started it yet (want to use up my Yukky Norwegian cherry flavored bottle first). The lady at the local natural apothecary promised me it has absolutely no fish taste; I'll know sometime in a week or so. It's a bit more expensive, but you have to be careful with the comparisons because the concentrations differ so.
>
> Barbara(cat), hope you're still hovering around; it was your success story that got me to finally commit to trying it.
>
> Take care,
>
> Shelli
>
>Hi, I'm taking 5000mg of EPA and DHA fish oils high concentration daily. One capsule contains 500mg EPA and 310 mg DHA.
My depression has lifted completely and I think it helps somewhat with my OCD too.
Regards and God bless.
Posted by ShelliR on November 22, 2002, at 22:53:05
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake » ShelliR, posted by freedom2001 on November 22, 2002, at 1:20:44
Two questions:
How depressed were you before you started?
How long did it take your depression to lift?
I am also in my sixth week of taking a combination of homeopathic remedies "prescribed" by my doctor, and I can already tell that I have gotten some relief from my depression. It's going to be hard for me to separate effects from starting two treatments so close together, but right now I just want to feel good.
Shelli
Posted by freedom2001 on November 26, 2002, at 2:11:09
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake » freedom2001, posted by ShelliR on November 22, 2002, at 22:53:05
> Two questions:
>
> How depressed were you before you started?I have OCD+ depression since age 14.
Started fish oil not long ago.
>
> How long did it take your depression to lift?It took about 2 weeks for the fish oils to lift my depression. 90% recovered for depression.
>
> I am also in my sixth week of taking a combination of homeopathic remedies "prescribed" by my doctor, and I can already tell that I have gotten some relief from my depression. It's going to be hard for me to separate effects from starting two treatments so close together, but right now I just want to feel good.
>
> Shelli
Posted by bluedog on November 26, 2002, at 21:29:39
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 19:03:12
OK. I've been taking fish oil supplements for just over a week now and there is absolutely no doubt that my dreaming has become extremely violent and vivid and my sleep has become disturbed.
I started out taking one 1000mg tablet per day (contains omega-3 marine triglycerides 300mg, EPA 180mg and DHA 120mg). Yesterday I upped my dose to 2 tablets per day so I am not taking a huge amount of fish oil by any standards.
Can anyone tell me how long I can expect this disturbed sleep pattern to last before it settles down? I don't want to stop taking the fish oil because I have definitely been convinced of the benefits of fish oil through this message board. What's more I perceive the disturbed sleep and dreaming as the fish oil somehow having a therapeutic or healing effect on my system and my brain is adapting to suddenly being given the food it desires to function properly. I simply want to know how long it will be for these effects to pass.
Can you draw an analogy to a person who has been lost in the desert in the blazing sun and has become delusional through dehydration. When this person first takes a glass of water they are likely to throw it up. Further, when they are able to drink water again and keep it down they are likely to suffer all sorts of painful side effects as the body and it's organs rehydrate and starts the repair process?
Posted by colin wallace on November 27, 2002, at 6:56:29
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep, posted by bluedog on November 26, 2002, at 21:29:39
>>Can you draw an analogy to a person who has been lost in the desert in the blazing sun and has become delusional through dehydration. When this person first takes a glass of water they are likely to throw it up. Further, when they are able to drink water again and keep it down they are likely to suffer all sorts of painful side effects as the body and it's organs rehydrate and starts the repair process?
Hi,Fish oil screwed up my sleep in much the same fashion- at the same dosage- and never let up. Guess I died of dehydration!
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