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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by pharmrep on September 5, 2002, at 10:17:28
In reply to Re: Fewer s/e with Lexapro - where's the evidence?, posted by dr dave on September 5, 2002, at 2:31:05
> Anybody?
>
> Any evidence? If it's going to be repeated and repeated that Lexapro has fewer side-effects than Celexa, can anyone provide the evidence to back it up?
>
> Things seem to have gone a bit quiet with regards to this question.** I do agree with Anyuser's statement...the FDA has approved the statement "Lexapro 10mg/day had an overall incidence of side effects comparable to placebo" and "Lexapro 10mg/day showed no significant diference in drop-rates due to adverse events vs. placebo." (As written in the Lexapro package insert)
I have to ask you something DR. Dave...has any representative from Lundbeck seen you? I am thinking you have not gotten any input/presentation from them, posters of studies or samples....or have you?
Posted by dr. dave on September 5, 2002, at 10:34:28
In reply to Re: evidence » dr dave, posted by pharmrep on September 5, 2002, at 10:17:28
> > Anybody?
> >
> > Any evidence? If it's going to be repeated and repeated that Lexapro has fewer side-effects than Celexa, can anyone provide the evidence to back it up?
> >
> > Things seem to have gone a bit quiet with regards to this question.
>
> ** I do agree with Anyuser's statement...the FDA has approved the statement "Lexapro 10mg/day had an overall incidence of side effects comparable to placebo" and "Lexapro 10mg/day showed no significant diference in drop-rates due to adverse events vs. placebo." (As written in the Lexapro package insert)
> I have to ask you something DR. Dave...has any representative from Lundbeck seen you? I am thinking you have not gotten any input/presentation from them, posters of studies or samples....or have you?I've seen a Lundbeck rep and I have also had several lengthy conversations with Dr Joubert Gama, Medical Affairs Officer for Lundbeck UK. I've seen all the papers and posters available, to my knowledge - certainly Lundbeck say they've sent me everything that's available.
Posted by Dinah on September 5, 2002, at 10:34:59
In reply to Re: evidence » dr dave, posted by pharmrep on September 5, 2002, at 10:17:28
Posted by pharmrep on September 5, 2002, at 21:39:12
In reply to Re: evidence » dr dave, posted by pharmrep on September 5, 2002, at 10:17:28
Well I must say...today was weird. I saw 11 Dr's today. All of the highest prescription writers only. I would normally get 10 seconds for a signature up to 2 minutes max with any of them in the past, yet today I got a range from 5-20 minutes. I felt like I was at Disneyland..running around from ride to ride, but only going on the "big" ones. There's definitely many questions and interest in Lexapro out there. The Dr's are eager to read the data and learn. From the responses I saw today... I would say there was a lot of interest before launch, and even more now, and the Dr's want to see how well Lexapro really works.
Posted by psycHarvard on September 5, 2002, at 23:16:05
In reply to Re: Fewer s/e with Lexapro - where's the evidence?, posted by Bill L on September 3, 2002, at 9:48:28
I am a clinical instructor in Psychology with Harvard and I have had experience in depth with Lexapro since it was licenced by forest from Lundbeck in 98.... yes that is right it has been developed over a few years now and the reason that forest is now promoting Lexapro is simple and so many people here are uninformed and jumping to conclusions that I had to spell it out for them...
Lexapro is the next generation in SRI therapy.... next generation remember that it is important... first generation SSRI (Lexapro is in the SRI class) was Fluoxetine and there has been no huge improvement in SSRIs since then... a little cleaner and little more tolerable... so in that respect lost boy is correct... but now this is where some of you may feel challenged... Lexapro is the next generation of SRI therapy... what this means is basically that Lexapro is the most selective of any anti depressant... for 5HT without hitting on any of the other monos... this will decrease AE profile and reduce psycho activating events... I am trying to keep this as simple as possible... Lexapro has advantages over other anti depressant due to the fact that it only hits one mono as hundreds of studies show (Freemantle is a good one) that any more than one will just cause more AEs and a decrease in pat compliance... at any rate the SNRIs available only hit both 5HT and NE at the highest titrated dose so if you are on anything less you have fallen for a marketing ploy.... not that I do not believe that they are efficacious.
I have a lot of information that I am willing to share but I will only mention a bit at a time.
Posted by Phil on September 6, 2002, at 8:27:35
In reply to Re: Fewer s/e with Lexapro - where's the evidence?, posted by psycHarvard on September 5, 2002, at 23:16:05
May I ask what your involvement was in the studies?
We're uninformed about Lexapro because of a lack of subjective information.
I'd like the answer to three questions, if you will. Sexual SE, less or more than Celexa- -Weight gain, less or more than Celexa- -Emotional blunting and apathy, less or more than Celexa.
I'll be switching to Lexapro from Celexa early next week. Any info appreciated.
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 9:03:22
In reply to Re: Fewer s/e with Lexapro - where's the evidence?, posted by psycHarvard on September 5, 2002, at 23:16:05
> I am trying to keep this as simple as possible...
Well, if you were speaking only to me, it would probably be best to keep it as simple as possible. But a lot of people on this site are quite comfortable with this sort of talk (moreso than my pdoc in fact) and would relish a complex explanation. Then they could translate for those of us who need a simpler explanation. :)
> I have a lot of information that I am willing to share but I will only mention a bit at a time.
>Well it's your choice of course, but again, I think people would enjoy hearing it all at once. It might take a while to digest it all, but it might also allow the information to be coalesced in a way that hearing it a bit at a time wouldn't allow. So feel free to hit us with it all at once.
> at any rate the SNRIs available only hit both 5HT and NE at the highest titrated dose so if you are on anything less you have fallen for a marketing ploy.... not that I do not believe that they are efficacious.
>
Hmm. Okay, as I admitted, I am *not* one of the people who understand neurotransmitters that well. Are you saying that a SNRI such as Effexor is doing for both 5HTP and NE what Lexapro will do for only 5HTP? Or am I totally misunderstanding? Because I have to say that Effexor was just as bad at sexual side effects for me as a straight SSRI. The fact that its effect on NE was disastrous for me is probably beside the point.At any rate, the whole discussion is probably only important from a theoretical point right now. Phil and others are going to try Lexapro. In just a few short weeks, the anecdotal evidence will start coming in. And I trust the anecdotal evidence more than all the studies in the world because in my experience it has been more accurate. I've had doctors tell me over and over again that this or that experience can't be caused my my med, when I come here and find out it's pretty common.
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 9:04:10
In reply to Re: Fewer s/e with Lexapro - where's the evidence?, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 9:03:22
Posted by johnj on September 6, 2002, at 11:23:27
In reply to Re: Fewer s/e with Lexapro - where's the evidence?, posted by psycHarvard on September 5, 2002, at 23:16:05
I have a question for you maybe you can give me a hint upon the causes. I am at 50 mg nortrypline, 600 mg lithobid, and 15 to 22.5 or tranzene. I have depression with a high level of anxiety. The problem is if I excercise I feel like crap after a regime has been started. Sometimes the next day I will feel more depressed and have sleep disturbances. I have taken care to watch the time I work out, what I do and what I eat. I take in enough sodium so it is not a spike in lithium. I believe it is the TCA somehow. Have you ever run across this? What have atheletes used that have been sucessful to treat anxiety and depression. I am hoping a switch to lexapro will give me the power back to help myself through excercise. Also, what is the deal with increased anxiety with ssri's? I went to a Celexa board and almost 90% complained of worsening anxiety. Any thoughts? Thank you.
PS. I tried remeron and it gave me a "sponge head" and messed with short term memory.
Posted by Anyuser on September 6, 2002, at 11:48:29
In reply to Re: Fewer s/e with Lexapro - where's the evidence?, posted by psycHarvard on September 5, 2002, at 23:16:05
In my opinion, any posters that announce themselves as a physician, whether teaching, research, or clinical, should identify themselves further. Dr. Dave did this, sort of, by linking to an article in which he was quoted and identified.
Pharmrep let us know where he is coming from, so we can take into account his bias when weighing what he has to say. I suspect there is a least one other poster on this topic with commercial interests, who has not been as candid as pharmrep.
Posted by Phil on September 6, 2002, at 12:42:25
In reply to Who are you? » psycHarvard, posted by Anyuser on September 6, 2002, at 11:48:29
Posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 14:37:39
In reply to Sharing info a little at a time...hmmmm..? (nm), posted by Phil on September 6, 2002, at 12:42:25
Somebody here must set the record straight and stick to the hard facts about Lexapro. Rather than using emotional claims to incite enthusiasm for this new antidepressant. Here are the hard, cold facts about Lexapro.
1) Lexapro is formally classified as an SSRI. Lexapro is not a truly new or novel antidepressant such as a CRF-Antagonist, subsance P drug, an MAOI patch or other drug.
2) Lexapro has been tweaked pharmacologically to supposedly remove some undesireable side effects like SSRI delayed ejaculation. This may...or may not be true. Only time will tell. The studies which claim this are studies done by forest labs, which should be taken with a grain of salt.
3) When reading studies about psychiatric drugs, several things must be kept in mind. First, educated people are skeptical about statistical studies. Unless the studies are done by TOTALLY objective organisations who have no conflicts of interest with the drug. In plain English, any study done abou Lexapro doesnt have a huge amount of credibility unless done by an organisation totally unconnected to Forrest Labs and is not being paid by Forrest Labs.
The U.S Census Bureau is an example of an objective organisation, with no conflicts of interest. Pharmaceutical companies however, have conflicts of interest out the wazoo and thus are unlikely to be able to remain truly objective and honest about their drugs.
Its imperative that any studies done about Lexapro, the organisation doing the study must have no conflicts of interest with Lexapro or Forest Labs. In the case of the Forest Labs/Lexapro studies, you have automatic built in conflicts of interest. Therefore, you should real these studies with EXTREME skepticism.
It should also be remembered that when the other SSRIs came out (Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft) that the studies which came along with these SSRIs also indicated low levels of sexual dysfunction such as delayed ejaculation. This was quickly proven to be untrue and sexual dysfunction has been proven to be a major reason why depressives discontinue SSRIs.
Statisics can be skewed, distorted, etc. to make a product look good or better than the competition. The odds of this happening are higher when he statistics are done by the company which makes the product in question.
4) The studies dont describe the TYPES of depressives in the Lexapro studies. All too often, antidepressant clinical trials turn away those with the severe form of depression known as the melancholia subtype (true severe depression) and actively recruit those with milder to moderate depressions (dysthmics). This is a poor way to assess the effectiveness of a new antidepressant. Id like to know how many melancholic depressives were included in Lexapro clinical trials.
My best is that most of the people who took part in Lexapro studies were dysthymics or people with moderate depression. People who by and large could still function in life without drugs, people who could still work, etc.
We need more drug clinical trials where the people recruited are those with SEVERE melancholia type major depression, not dysthymics and moderate depressives. My prediction is that many antidepressants on the market would not be approved so fast by the FDA if this were to happen.
Of course, many drug companies would love it if they could develop "cleaner" SSRIs which have no real side effects such as delayed ejacuation, weight gain, etc. Why? Because then they would be able to target the HUGE dysthymia market and sell more Lexapro. Lets face it, there is a lot of dysthymia in this country, but dysthmics can still work, function in life, etc. Drugs arent really needed to combat dysthymia. There are other ways. However the drug companies would like EVERYBODY to take these SSRI drugs, simply cause it means bigger profits. But most dysthmics wont tolerate a lot of side effects, whereas a person with severe melancholia type depression will tolerate a lot of side effects.
thus there is motivation to develop newer SSRIs which have minimal side effects...to get all the dysthymics on antidepressants. This is pathetic.
5) and finally as LostBoyinNC has pointed out, remember who "pharmrep" is. Pharmrep is a Lexapro drug salesman for Forest Labs. The more Lexapro that is sold, the bigger the profits for Forest Labs...and the better paycheck pharmrep gets. Thus he may not exactly have the depressives true welfare in mind. Like any salesman, they want to sell their wares, in this case Lexapro.
Posted by IsoM on September 6, 2002, at 15:06:50
In reply to The hard, cold facts about Lexapro, posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 14:37:39
I agree with most of what you've written but do reserve judgement about some. But one thing I do disagree with is to infute the motives of someone you've never met face-to-face. It's important to not include personal opinions of others here.
I may sound naive but I prefer to believe what someone states about themself until proven otherwise. We can gather all the hard facts from different studies but we can't gather facts on what an individual's motives are that easily.
While I take these posts with a grain of salt, I believe pharmrep, while touting Lexapro, does hope that it's as good as it claims to be. Whether I think it is, doesn't matter. But I think his motives are essentially good. Just as I believe Dr. Dave's motives are too.
Making comments about someone's motives doesn't advance your views, but will only serve to make them less credible to others.
Posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 15:12:38
In reply to The hard, cold facts about Lexapro, posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 14:37:39
Hi Pharmrep, I would like to know about the types of depressives who took part in these Lexapro clinical trials.
1) How many of them had severe depression, the type generally referred to as the "melancholia subtype" of depression? This type of depression is also known as endogenous depression and consists of severe deteriorations in sleeping cycles especially severe insomnia, losing weight and appetite without trying, losing sex drive and losing sexual functioning, losing normal cognition such as inability to concentrate, remember, decide, think clearly, etc. Also, melancholic depressives tend to lose their sense of taste and smell. Did Lexapro restore sense of smell and taste?
2) How many of the depressives in the Lexapro trials were recruited and had milder to moderate forms of depression known as "dysthymia."
3) what were the full remission rates for Lexapro?
4) What were the full remission rates for the people who had the severe melancholic form of depression? Or did these people just get a "response" and improve some, but not get totally well?
How many of these depressives in the Lexapro trials were considered disabled and unable to work? Did Lexapro restore their disability and make them undisabled and able to work?
These are very important questions for you. I am not sure you will even know the answers to these questions, but Im asking anyway.
thanks,
Posted by Anyuser on September 6, 2002, at 15:23:46
In reply to The hard, cold facts about Lexapro, posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 14:37:39
FWIW, the manufacturer has tried out Lexapro on severely depressed patients: http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/8525697700573E1885256C280059CC1D?OpenDocument&c=Depression&count=10&id=389736e1a5d7a79d85256c270052d0a8
Posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 15:46:52
In reply to severe depression » ZyprexaNumbTongue, posted by Anyuser on September 6, 2002, at 15:23:46
> FWIW, the manufacturer has tried out Lexapro on severely depressed patients: http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/8525697700573E1885256C280059CC1D?OpenDocument&c=Depression&count=10&id=389736e1a5d7a79d85256c270052d0a8
Hmmmmm but it says the "manfacturer" of Lexapro has tried it out on severely depressed patients. What about organisations not tied to the manufacturere? What were the results?
Have there been any tests to compare the results of Lexapro in severe, melancholic type depression with the results of say high dose Effexor, bilateral/bifrontal ECT or high dose MAOIs? Im just curious.
the manufacturer is likely to say about anything about Lexapro, keep in mind.
the article didnt mention remission rates from Lexapro in severe depression. The goal in severe depression is full remission, not a 50% "response."
Did you know that to get approval as a new antidepressant by the FDA, all a drug has to prove is that it reduces HAMD scores by 50%? Thats all. A drug doesnt have to prove it causes full remission, just a response.
How much money was spent bringing Lexapro to market BTW?
Furthermore, how do you know whether Solomon's son had the real deal, melancholia subtype of depression? I scanned his book and it has lots of introspective BS stuff in it, that reminded me more of a "issues" type depression than an endogenous depression that needs ECT.
ZyprexaNumbTongue
Posted by Anyuser on September 6, 2002, at 16:10:00
In reply to Re: severe depression, posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 15:46:52
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 16:23:41
In reply to The hard, cold facts about Lexapro, posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 14:37:39
>
> 5) and finally as LostBoyinNC has pointed out, remember who "pharmrep" is. Pharmrep is a Lexapro drug salesman for Forest Labs. The more Lexapro that is sold, the bigger the profits for Forest Labs...and the better paycheck pharmrep gets. Thus he may not exactly have the depressives true welfare in mind. Like any salesman, they want to sell their wares, in this case Lexapro.As IsoM pointed out, please do not jump to conclusions about others.
Here is a link to the civility guidelines of this site.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Dinah (filling in for Dr. Bob)
Posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 16:33:33
In reply to Re: The hard, cold facts about Lexapro, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 16:23:41
> >
> > 5) and finally as LostBoyinNC has pointed out, remember who "pharmrep" is. Pharmrep is a Lexapro drug salesman for Forest Labs. The more Lexapro that is sold, the bigger the profits for Forest Labs...and the better paycheck pharmrep gets. Thus he may not exactly have the depressives true welfare in mind. Like any salesman, they want to sell their wares, in this case Lexapro.
>
> As IsoM pointed out, please do not jump to conclusions about others.
>
> Here is a link to the civility guidelines of this site.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> Dinah (filling in for Dr. Bob)Why is that jumping to conclusions about others, Dinah? Maybe you need to increase the dosage of your neuroleptic? Its obvious to me you cant think clearly.
Dinah...listen to me. THINK!!! I know you are schizoaffective which makes clear thinking possibly difficult for you, but try harder.
Pharmrep is a drugsalesman for Forest Labs, the company that makes Lexapro.
Pharmrep constantly brags about Lexapro in his posts, his posts have a very salesman ring about them. Anyone can see this.
Pharmrep makes Lexapro sound as if its the best SSRI,
Pharmrep gets paid by Forest Labs, the company that makes Lexapro.
Dinah, thats NOT jumping to conclusions about others. Its simple logic, common sense and business savvy on pharmrep's case.
I dont appreciate you telling me that Im "jumping to conclusions bout others when the handwriting in on the wall, clear as it could be.
Posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 16:46:15
In reply to Re: The hard, cold facts about Lexapro, posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 16:33:33
Hi Pharmrep, Ive been thinking about a lot of your posts and I have a suggestion for you. I have wondered if you have ever tried a low dose atypical anti-psychotic drug such as Zyprexa or Seroquel? It might help you to think more clearly and to be more objective. It might enable you to see that you have a conflict of interest with regards to Lexapro and bragging about it constantly on here.
Just a suggestion from someone who has been around the block and knows what he is talking about. Forest Labs doesnt make any atypicals that I know of, but Eli Lilly makes a great one called Zyprexa. Might wanna ask your doctor about it. Tell him you are having problems thinking clearly.
Zyprexa Numb Tongue
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 16:46:28
In reply to Re: The hard, cold facts about Lexapro, posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 16:33:33
Posted by Anyuser on September 6, 2002, at 17:43:17
In reply to Re: Blocked for a week (nm) » ZyprexaNumbTongue, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 16:46:28
Posted by moxy1000 on September 6, 2002, at 18:30:16
In reply to Re: Fewer s/e with Lexapro - where's the evidence?, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 9:03:22
WOW. ZyprexaNumbTongue has insulted me and his posts were not even directed at me. Ouch. Anyway, I'm surprised at the continued references to MAOI's. I didn't think those were widely taken anymore b/c of the nasty s/e's and the list of foods you cannot eat while taking an MAOI. Are they coming back in fashion? I really thought they were only for really tough cases where nothing else had worked. Am I wrong or just uninformed?
Posted by LLL on September 6, 2002, at 18:33:58
In reply to Whoa....that's the nastiest I've seen it get, posted by moxy1000 on September 6, 2002, at 18:30:16
Posted by psycHarvard on September 6, 2002, at 22:52:01
In reply to Re: Fewer s/e with Lexapro - where's the evidence?, posted by Phil on September 6, 2002, at 8:27:35
> May I ask what your involvement was in the studies?
No personal involvement in the studies... I talk all over the U.S. and Europe on behalf of most of the pharma... the information that I post is not my opinion... in a way it is but I am working off what I have seen in the majority of pats and from all the information I have seen in learning extensively the products that I have talked about.
> We're uninformed about Lexapro because of a lack of subjective information.
> I'd like the answer to three questions, if you will. Sexual SE, less or more than Celexa- -That depends on if you look in the P.I. for Lexapro and Celexa and compare them.... Lexapro rates are slightly higher we are talking about rates that are not even clinically important.
Now the reason for this is simple.... 5HT will always cause a little sexual dysfunction... in the studies conducted on Celexa... which was a few years ago now pats were not as forth coming as they are now in admitting sex dys....as they are now... now you can have a hard time telling what this really means in the end.... the Lexapro P.I. states sex dys as 9% for delayed ejaculation.... not always a bad thing.... the rate is very low..... you should always look for AEs under 10%.... anything under this is acceptable... the other rates for Lexapro as far as I know is impotence 3% and for females decreased libido 2% and anorgasmia 2%..... so what I am saying is that the real studies are the ones that the pats who are starting on Lexapro will talk about..... but for the majority of the population they will experience rates similar to these... there will always be pats that cannot tolerate even the best of any med.... and no one knows why...
Weight gain, less or more than Celexa-
Weight gain...weight loss in Lexapro... comparable to Celexa... and they are both comparable to placebo in regards to that also.
-Emotional blunting and apathy, less or more than Celexa... this is not so easily to measure as you know depression like many of the disorders are very subjective in measurement.... so that is something that I cannot comment on for the majority of people... it really is a case by case feeling emitted by the pat... as far as I know no studies have been conducted in this area.
> I'll be switching to Lexapro from Celexa early next week. Any info appreciated.
You can start Lexapro therapy the next day after stopping Celexa... 10mg is what they should start you on....My time is very limited and I am not always able to get to a computer... but when I can I will answer your questions.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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