![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 12 to 36 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by JonW on June 4, 2002, at 21:32:28
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by Xevious on June 4, 2002, at 20:39:55
> Although I agree with the essence of the arguments against street drugs, it saddens me to see so much polarization on this issue, as such behavior usually tends towards obscurement of the facts in favor of emotional fanaticism. And it is exactly this kind of fanaticism that has the potential to hinder legitimate scientific research into controversial, but therapeutic medications.
Hi Xevious,I hope you didn't take my post to be on the opposite pole as you. I believe in the bottom line and agree with having an open mind, however, do you really believe in supporting the bottom line at all costs? I agree that we should oppose attitudes that hinder research, however, I also think we should oppose attitudes that increase mainstream drug abuse.
Jon
p.s. duck... here comes a tomato! ;)
Posted by Xevious on June 4, 2002, at 21:58:11
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » Xevious, posted by JonW on June 4, 2002, at 21:32:28
Actually, I completely agree with what you said, Jon. I just wanted to advocate the middle ground of seeing street drugs not as "good" or "evil," but for what they really are - drugs that are unfortunately abused too frequently, to ill effects.And no, I don't believe in supporting the bottom line at all costs, although I will fight vigorously for the continued freedom of our great nation's pharmaceutical companies to gouge consumers with legal medications! ;) IMHO, the street drug problem is a sad paradox that seems to have no clear answers.
I advocate education, compassion and rehabilitation. Most importantly, I advocate me getting off of this emotionally charged subject before someone dumps a whole crate of tomatoes on me! ;)
-Steven
>
> I hope you didn't take my post to be on the opposite pole as you. I believe in the bottom line and agree with having an open mind, however, do you really believe in supporting the bottom line at all costs? I agree that we should oppose attitudes that hinder research, however, I also think we should oppose attitudes that increase mainstream drug abuse.
>
> Jon
>
> p.s. duck... here comes a tomato! ;)
Posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 12:13:31
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » omega man, posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 19:34:29
the reality is that illegal drugs ruin more lives than they help. and nothing can be said against that.
Except for the fact that tobacco and alcohol kill more people and cause more problems than all the illegal drugs combined. It is a mistake to use
the legal status of a drug to decide if it is good or bad.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:24:12
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by SassyMom33 on June 4, 2002, at 3:40:44
I can see from you reply we could have a whole discussion about the usefullness of "altered states"...altering your mental state gives you another view from which to see things...and having a drawer full of stuff that give me varieties of ways to see and feel things is very usefull indeed...
to answer your points raised my initial information about ectasy was from videotapes of a subject given ectasy in a lab/psychiatry environment...where his first words when MDMA hit his head were "I feel like music, I feel like I need to dance"...
for heroin...I never use a needle so i'm not taking the all or nothing risk you indicated...I don't go for that sort of risk..nearly all my life threatining situations were due to the untested combos people try on themselves who post to psycho-babble..but i'm not critizing that..its great all that stuff is availible...i just find it more frightening than the things I do to myself..
aside from heroin and cocaine which are useless to most peoples everyday lives I just don't see legal/non legal as being a good indicator of whats going to be helpfull and what is'nt....cigarettes are a very quick way to destroy yourslf yet we let that happen...
The law seem to be more of a warning as to whats happened within certain groups of people...I don't think I ever said to legalize the drugs I had mentioned..I was making a wider point that we don't market and license drugs for recreational use anymore...we have done and we know what those are....but like I say MDMA helped me unclog stuff from my brain and once the process is over it was very much like a classic psychiatry success except I did'nt need three months probing.....just one session....
LSD was liberating too...
some of the deeper mental processes you can release can be so very helpfull...in that i'm taking about religous experiences and I hope you realize how good that can be for everybody....
As for "drug induced realities" what do you call the state of constant multiple prescription most people here live through ?It does not matter if a reality is drug induced..if its usefull to that persons health or results in people getting ideas or states of being that hopefully turn out to be fruitfull or productive...
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:29:47
In reply to i agree. illegal drugs = evil (nm) » SassyMom33, posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 15:30:34
adamie...I don't know what sort of problems you have experienced...and I hope you need never have take anything thats illegal and feel the pressure that goes with it..but terms like "evil" don't really mean anything to me..Try to think what youre really trying to say in terms of specific ideas or all I know is that you feel very strongly against what I say..but not why.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:41:07
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » omega man, posted by adamie on June 4, 2002, at 19:34:29
I do look at big pictures..but what I said here was just me saying my story...
its true what you say about the influence on kids..and whoever supplies anything to them..would be greedy or destructive or stupid...
we already have in place different allowances for people of certain status or IQ...the laws are there I suppose as a resevoir of well founded warning or a bottom line for many who cant understand why they exist...and to be involved in breaking any is something I would really have to seriously consider why I'm doing that...after all anything that made its way to actually being written in law has obviously deep importance to us all..
I think many laws about drugs like Cannnibis LSD and MDMA only exist because its an unknown quantity with no practical use.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:42:35
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 12:13:31
illegal drugs tend to ruin lives when abused.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:52:34
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 12:13:31
thanks for replying..had to get that out of me..then I saw all these replies and wrote replies one by one..but I can see for the most I have been well understood....yes most illegal drugs are that way for reasons of destructive to living...or if not used properly they are..I mean if you could legislate that somebody could only drink alcohol at weekends then you would cut out the addictive personalities....and heroin..I should say is bad for 90% people who try it....similarly your average person does tend to abuse drugs...when I have some new prescription I have friends whose first reaction is "lets try 6 of them" ...but thats Scotland where segments of the population are mentality...self destructive....its also the reason I can get my hands on anything really easy here..and try it ..seeing with my eyes open the bad side...
Its just good sense..I think there are people pre-disposed to addiction...they there are people who abuse drugs who tend to just have the wrong attitude about living but they did'nt know because their whole community has..or ..they have little concept of themselves or their potential..or some other problem..
Its quite possible to use your head with illegal drugs and be Ok ..these substances did'nt get so popular as to be banned without having some real benefits...So I can look at something like MDMA and see if I could get help from it..why else would I do it ? So from that point when I got to psycho-babble the initial reaction was "wow , everybody in the USA is really into trying new drug combos that have not been tested as safe"
what I saw here looked scarier than anything I did..posts like "HELP EFFEXOR giving me ELECTRIC BRAIN SHOCKS " etc etc etc....plus having seen quite a high turnover of people who post here...makes me wonder how many still are.....here...I suppose this is a new thread but people here are combining as much as six drugs in their system..many prescribed from multiple doctors...and I know its due to being mentally sick and trying to find a way..but from what I know these drugs are not clinically tested like this ..I nearly died due to prescribed combos by different doctors..and many people here are the test experiment.....thats just as risky as me needing omega3 for winter blues ...(omega having not had proper trials yet)...
So my point is the law is not a good indicator..and so if it not then is the guidleines for using your prescrptions drug i.e. " take as much as you need but make absolutely sure you take one a day every day as long as you like..in fact be very carefull about stopping "....should I add be very carefull about stopping because we need your money !!
I don't particularly trust the legal rhetoric regarding drugs at the moment..
Posted by beardedlady on June 5, 2002, at 13:52:01
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » adamie, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:41:07
that aren't prescribed to you. It's illegal to give your prescription drugs to someone else, even if that person has a prescription for it. Are those things evil too? Or is self-medication okay, as long as it's with medicine sold at the pharmacy?
beardy : )>
Posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 14:18:13
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » oracle, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:42:35
> illegal drugs tend to ruin lives when abused.
But legal drugs (tobacco and alcohol) kill more people and cause more problems than all the illegal drugs combined. Anything abused will cause harm.
My point is that using a legal definition
to brand one drug "evil" and the other not
is not a valid argument. The legal drugs cause the most harm and death.
Posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 12:52:34
> Its quite possible to use your head with illegal drugs and be Ok ..these substances did'nt get so popular as to be banned without having some real benefits...So I can look at something like MDMA and see if I could get help from it..why else would I do it ? So from that point when I got to psycho-babble the initial reaction was "wow , everybody in the USA is really into trying new drug combos that have not been tested as safe"
> what I saw here looked scarier than anything I did..posts like "HELP EFFEXOR giving me ELECTRIC BRAIN SHOCKS " etc etc etc....plus having seen quite a high turnover of people who post here...makes me wonder how many still are.....here...Hi omega man,
It may be possible for you to use illegal drugs without a problem but that doesn't mean this is true for the population in general. In my opinion, pushing this idea of "safe" drug use could only affect the general population in a negative way. Take the following excerpt from a paper about MDMA, for example:
"Apart from the small number of people who have reported improvement or resolution of emotional or personality problems after the use of MDMA in psychotherapy, the long-term effects are virtually all adverse ones. They are all thought to arise from a neurotoxic action of the methylenedioxy derivatives of the amphetamines."
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11599334&dopt=Abstract)This does not support what you are saying. Yes, ecstasy feels good, but for the majority that's not the same as having real benefit and without great risk. Where is the data to support what you are saying? Similar claims were once made about LSD being useful for patients in therapy, but in at least one study no lasting benefit was found in a 10 year follow-up study of such patients. There is plenty of data that supports the safety and efficacy of effexor. I know the United States is full of politics and the drug companies are only in it for the money, but we still go by the data and get things right most of the time.
Maybe the turnover here in psycho-babble is a bad sign, but maybe it's a good sign, too. Show me the data that supports the idea that more people die from the "cocktails" prescribed than ecstasy or heroin use and I may change my mind about things. I don't mean to come across as saying these drugs are "evil" because I certainly don't think that. I mean, if any given chemical happens to improve the quality of life for someone with a horrible prognosis I think they should have legal access to it. But I can see how having such laws is a very tricky business.
Jon
p.s. I don't think tapering drugs when you discontinue them is a marketing ploy. Believe me, I hardly taper when I stop a drug and almost always suffer for it ;)
Posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:41:03
In reply to It's illegal to take prescription drugs..., posted by beardedlady on June 5, 2002, at 13:52:01
the true evil is in the ignorance of people and how they feel their behaviour is acceptable. illegal drug use causes enfluence towards others to try it as well. and this all spreads towards the children. so yes the illegal drug users are evil. unless you are in the 1% of the population who absolutely needs them for reasons such as finding no medication to help your mental illness then it is selfish and wrong. and the drug user may not care about damaging their body but others care about them. how would you feel if you had a son taking heroin? it's disgusting. and the general population is too. which can be clearly seen here.
> that aren't prescribed to you. It's illegal to give your prescription drugs to someone else, even if that person has a prescription for it. Are those things evil too? Or is self-medication okay, as long as it's with medicine sold at the pharmacy?
>
> beardy : )>
Posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:44:34
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 14:18:13
yes they do. but that doesn't remove the fact that illegal drugs do far more harm than good. you need to look at the big picture. not just yourself. you want the whole world messed up on drugs? i am glad that when i have a child i will raise 'her' right.> My point is that using a legal definition
> to brand one drug "evil" and the other not
> is not a valid argument. The legal drugs cause the most harm and death.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 17:48:53
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
what i'm trying to say is that prescribed drugs tend to have no fun effects ...which can enhance non-clinincal creative pursuits..although many do..it tends to be the illegal ones which have this quality..but to me the line gets blurred..I'll put omega 3 on top of my list as a mixer for many drugs...in fact I won't do some class A drugs without omega3 to offset the Neural burnout...along with good eating, exercise having a creative life and lots of fresh air and friends who look out for you...perhaps having all the dimensions that constitute a healthy life help support this creative non-abusive dabbling..
put it this way I have certain rules regarding certain drug...well for every drug really...
Heroin-expect a 2 week recovery before you get back to the energy state you had previously to taking it..and thats for one time use..also that rules applies to MDMA..
Prozac-keep the diet bland and put plenty of time aside for sleep.
Omega3-only take before sleeping or risk facial paralysis.
and so on for about 12 drugs I have each with its own "spell" or use ..
with such variety and the drugs being slave to real living purpose..I find thats the key...and when I see the posts here its scary how slaved people are ...so I wonder why don't drug companies come up with developing one time one hit remedies...which I believe MDMA has the potential to be along with an approved psycotherapy programme...
I don't believe drug companies try to fool us...I'm a non-conspiracist...but certain structures in drug development occur because they are a product of business interest...
A one time one hit cure would never cover the development costs so it make you wonder if anybody is even trying or able to get the grants to research this.
I suppose i'm talking about gene switching drugs..which read the profile from your DNA to see what transmitter cocktail you have and just switching in the healthier sequence..and thats it..
I would hope this is being researched because the money would still be there in providing the individual service, but we'll probably have to wait for some organization to get innovative and do this before the big companies show any sign of wanting to stop selling us "one size fits all, take em every day bullets"
Posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:49:24
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
i agree with some of what you say. and so what if many people on this forum complain about various problems with these medications? the fact is that most of the people who are helped by these meds with very few problems do not post. Simply because they are busy living their happy and restored lives.> Hi omega man,
>
> It may be possible for you to use illegal drugs without a problem but that doesn't mean this is true for the population in general. In my opinion, pushing this idea of "safe" drug use could only affect the general population in a negative way. Take the following excerpt from a paper about MDMA, for example:
>
> "Apart from the small number of people who have reported improvement or resolution of emotional or personality problems after the use of MDMA in psychotherapy, the long-term effects are virtually all adverse ones. They are all thought to arise from a neurotoxic action of the methylenedioxy derivatives of the amphetamines."
> (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11599334&dopt=Abstract)
>
> This does not support what you are saying. Yes, ecstasy feels good, but for the majority that's not the same as having real benefit and without great risk. Where is the data to support what you are saying? Similar claims were once made about LSD being useful for patients in therapy, but in at least one study no lasting benefit was found in a 10 year follow-up study of such patients. There is plenty of data that supports the safety and efficacy of effexor. I know the United States is full of politics and the drug companies are only in it for the money, but we still go by the data and get things right most of the time.
>
> Maybe the turnover here in psycho-babble is a bad sign, but maybe it's a good sign, too. Show me the data that supports the idea that more people die from the "cocktails" prescribed than ecstasy or heroin use and I may change my mind about things. I don't mean to come across as saying these drugs are "evil" because I certainly don't think that. I mean, if any given chemical happens to improve the quality of life for someone with a horrible prognosis I think they should have legal access to it. But I can see how having such laws is a very tricky business.
>
> Jon
>
> p.s. I don't think tapering drugs when you discontinue them is a marketing ploy. Believe me, I hardly taper when I stop a drug and almost always suffer for it ;)
Posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:53:18
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » JonW, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 17:48:53
extacy a good treatment? uh sure, in the short term. that short period you are on it. then in return you get brain damage and increased depression due to seratonin burnout. extacy is a horrible disgusting drug.
> what i'm trying to say is that prescribed drugs tend to have no fun effects ...which can enhance non-clinincal creative pursuits..although many do..it tends to be the illegal ones which have this quality..but to me the line gets blurred..I'll put omega 3 on top of my list as a mixer for many drugs...in fact I won't do some class A drugs without omega3 to offset the Neural burnout...along with good eating, exercise having a creative life and lots of fresh air and friends who look out for you...perhaps having all the dimensions that constitute a healthy life help support this creative non-abusive dabbling..
>
> put it this way I have certain rules regarding certain drug...well for every drug really...
>
> Heroin-expect a 2 week recovery before you get back to the energy state you had previously to taking it..and thats for one time use..also that rules applies to MDMA..
>
> Prozac-keep the diet bland and put plenty of time aside for sleep.
>
> Omega3-only take before sleeping or risk facial paralysis.
>
> and so on for about 12 drugs I have each with its own "spell" or use ..
>
> with such variety and the drugs being slave to real living purpose..I find thats the key...and when I see the posts here its scary how slaved people are ...so I wonder why don't drug companies come up with developing one time one hit remedies...which I believe MDMA has the potential to be along with an approved psycotherapy programme...
>
> I don't believe drug companies try to fool us...I'm a non-conspiracist...but certain structures in drug development occur because they are a product of business interest...
>
> A one time one hit cure would never cover the development costs so it make you wonder if anybody is even trying or able to get the grants to research this.
>
> I suppose i'm talking about gene switching drugs..which read the profile from your DNA to see what transmitter cocktail you have and just switching in the healthier sequence..and thats it..
>
> I would hope this is being researched because the money would still be there in providing the individual service, but we'll probably have to wait for some organization to get innovative and do this before the big companies show any sign of wanting to stop selling us "one size fits all, take em every day bullets"
Posted by skills on June 5, 2002, at 17:56:32
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
omegaman i could not have put it better myself. Shame some people do not have the knowledge to blow off the blinkered views of a pharmacutically confused society, far better suited to the mid-twentieth century when these substances first became widely avalible to the masses.
Posted by jonh kimble on June 5, 2002, at 17:57:28
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
Very interesting stuff, and its good to be back. Many good points here, and i just wanted to add my 2 cents.
being in high school, as i am, certainly brings its temptations for drug experimentation. cannabis brought great self awarness. i hate to say it, but its true. like i can step above my life and view everything that goes on in a different (and perhaps more truthful) view point. only problem is cannabis makes my social phobia go thru the roof. hallucinogins did same with both, only more so.
why is it so bad to experience something in an altered state. these are chemicals effecting your brain, true, but every moment of every day the way we are is affected by chemicals in our brains. and who would know better than the people on this board. i dont mean to sound harsh, but is this not so?
obviously these drugs have there negatives, but they also have there pros. i have to say that i was responsible with my useage, but many people are not. whether or not greater education would help this i dont know. but like a prievious post said, its sad that we lock people away when they abuse drugs when we should get them help. get the problem at the roots. if biochemical abnormalities seem most likely, maybe psychiatric drugs would be the answer. if someone lost a loved one, maybe counselling would be best. but to give people who are suffering more suffering seems illogical. just my thoughts.
jon
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 18:02:28
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:53:18
When I need a quick AD hit I find the withdrawal from Ectasy on a par with effexor...usually the deciding factor is do I want to do it a few times..then I'll go with the effexor...but effexor is a bit more numbing and lacks the transmitter hit to get the trip required to exume an emotional trauma from you in a day....very handy when something really heavy happens and you still have to perform properly in a work situation where understanding is not aviliable and results are what counts.
Posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 18:14:28
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
I seem to be seeing illegal drugs as not differing from one another.
I think MJ should be legalized or very decriminalized for responsible people over 21.
The government is building prisons like Starbuck's and should be putting the money into research and growing.
_______I think many laws about drugs like Cannnibis LSD and MDMA only exist because its an unknown quantity with no practical use.
_______Marijuana has been proven to help Glaucoma, Aids wasting, cancer patients, etc. No practical use? It would put the family farmer back in business but the government doesn't want that.
Low THC hemp has 100's of uses.
America is making criminals out of regular folks who had an ounce of pot at the wrong time. For the gentleman above who can't enjoy his music anymore, well, don't go to your pdoc, smoke a spliff. I guarantee results.
For those who think pot makes you stupid, you might glance at the board of directors at NORML.
Carl Sagan's widow for one.
Pot has never been proven to be a gateway drug and the casual user ought to be able to grow for his own consumption, they already are.
It's just amazing to me that reefer madness is still alive and well. Recently, the mayor of NYC admitted to liking pot but he's busting the less fortunate at the same break-neck speed Guliani was. Pot arrest per year under the ex-mayor went from 2000 to 50,000! These aren't, for the vast majority, big time dealers.
If you legalize it and do it right, you take the syndicates out of it. I believe the UK and Canada are ahead of us on this.
I grew up raising alcoholics, my mom was a very low-bottom drunk when I was a kid. She got sober after I had left home. Alcohol is SO much worse than pot, there's no comparison..none. Health wise, traffic fatality wise, domestic abuse wise.
Cigarettes, I smoke, are far worse than pot.
The gov. is in so deep w/ tobacco and alcohol lobbyist and the companies they represent, that pot gets stepped on.
I'm not advocating pot use but I would damn sure rather have an occasional joint, sit back and chat w/ friends than to have alcohol get a grip on me. I've seen both sides up close and real and it's a damn shame that this country can't see it.
You have no idea how many pot smokers you work with on a daily basis and will never know it. But I can knock off an alcoholic within 1 minute of meeting them.
Crime has decreased in Amsterdam with the look the other way pot policy they have. Their research shows positive not negative results. Not to mention tourism out the ass.
Things won't change at all or it will be and has been agonizingly slow. Our President was a coke head, his daughters here in Austin, one especially, is already an alcoholic judging by her behavior. The Prez's brother in Florida has a daughter writing scripts for herself and getting busted.
I work in government and there are some very high level stoners. It's like millions and millions of American's in positions of power use it but can't speak up because of the 'stigma'. AAAARRRGGGGGGGGGG!
Okay, a few stoners may have car accidents but they will only be going 14 miles an hour on the freeway.Phil
Posted by jonh kimble on June 5, 2002, at 18:31:57
In reply to Jon: Trust me, Oracle has the data..plus.., posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 18:14:28
yes, why are illegal drugs all considered the same? i myself find pot makes my social phobia increase, but if you enjoy it, use it responsibly(not while driving 120 in a playground zone, but pot tends to make you drive slower than usual anyway) then i would say that there should be no problem. i think pot legalization is being slowed here in canada because of u.s. pressure. too bad.
one other thing i wanted to say, many people who abuse drugs are depressed. i know not every one but many. i dont think coke and booze are the best way to go by any means, but for someone who would other wise have killed themselves or living in missery 24/7, then i say this is definetly worse.
jon
Posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 18:33:16
In reply to Jon: Trust me, Oracle has the data..plus.., posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 18:14:28
Hi Phil,
I'm confused about what you meant by the title of your last post? I don't think I ever posted anything to Oracle, but I'm also confused in general because I'm a very confused individual? ;)
I completely agree with your post and couldn't have said it better myself! I don't understand why pot is illegal and just in case my previous posts were misleading I want to clear that up. If it were up to me alcohol would be illegal and pot would be legal. However, I definitely don't have this liberal of a view of ecstasy or heroin. Anyway, I'm still confused... :)
Jon
Posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 18:39:49
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » oracle, posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:44:34
> yes they do. but that doesn't remove the fact that illegal drugs do far more harm than good. you need to look at the big picture. not just yourself. you want the whole world messed up on drugs?
Sorry, I do not get the "not just yourself" referance.
The world IS messed up on drugs. The war on drugs has failed. The Dutch have a system that works. They have been dealing with serious drug issues far longer that the US. I suggest you look the that "big picture"
Posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 18:47:49
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » adamie, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 18:02:28
omega man,
It's interesting because I read on another site that effexor is a distant cousin of ecstasy. I don't know how much truth there is to that, though.
Jon
> When I need a quick AD hit I find the withdrawal from Ectasy on a par with effexor...usually the deciding factor is do I want to do it a few times..then I'll go with the effexor...but effexor is a bit more numbing and lacks the transmitter hit to get the trip required to exume an emotional trauma from you in a day....very handy when something really heavy happens and you still have to perform properly in a work situation where understanding is not aviliable and results are what counts.
Posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 19:22:44
In reply to Phil: I'm confused...., posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 18:33:16
As I was reading your post mixed with anothers, I got confused then realized I had dropped a huge burning ash on my shirt but I wanted to answer someone just didn't know who. Everyone at work today was 'off' as was I. Uh, anyway, sorry.
Phil
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