![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 28 to 52 of 55. Go back in thread:
Posted by IsoM on April 16, 2002, at 22:49:24
In reply to Re: Didn't Make Myself Clear--IsoM, posted by JohnX2 on April 16, 2002, at 16:58:34
If you can't take modafinil (Provigil), John, you probably wouldn't be able to tolerate adrafinil either. Remember that one of adrafinil's metabolites is modafinil. Unless there's something helpful or protective of the other main metabolite of adrafinil, the fact part of it changes to modafinil would probably count it out for you.
You said you had an hour of it working before you got a massive headache. What dose had you taken? I find it surprising when people say they notice an immediate affect with Provigil or adrafinil. It took fully a week for me to notice a difference & then it continued improving over the next month. I'm wondering if you started with a lower dose (perhaps even 1/4 of normal) & worked it up to 1/2 the next week, then 3/4 the following week before reaching the full dose, if it might work better. I started slow with the adrafinil just to be safe - maybe that might account for the fact I had no problems too.
Zo mentioned that she found Provigil has a fairly narrow therapeutical window & beyond it, side-effects show & negate the benefits. Less than that, it didn't seem to work. Your therapeutical window might be much lower than what's 'normal'. Seeing you probably have Provigil still kicking about, why not give it a try again at 1/4 normal dose on a weekend when you can crash from the pain, if it happens?
Remember how it doesn't seem to have any strong affinity for any neurotransmitter but seems to increase over-all brain metabolism? Perhaps too much increases some area in your brain that affects your perception of pain? Or after an hour or so, the blood plasma level has risen to the maximum & it's higher than your window is?
Muscle relaxation & the mental calmness I feel with adrafinil was one of the last benefits to kick in (after 3-4 weeks). For me, it was very noticable when it did. I realised that I could be alert & bright without being tense with muscles like coiled springs. My shoulders were no longer slightly hunched, no furrowed brow, tightly held jaw, or madly tapping toes & swinging legs. My body was still & relaxed but I was alert & ready. The only other time I ever felt so relaxed was when I'd awake in the morning & then slip back into sleep. I never equated calm with alert before.
Anyway, if you can tolerate it in a lowered dose, be patient about feeling the full benefits of it. Most reports I've read said it takes a while for them to happen.
Posted by JohnX2 on April 16, 2002, at 23:42:01
In reply to Modafinil vs Adrafinil » JohnX2, posted by IsoM on April 16, 2002, at 22:48:04
> If you can't take modafinil (Provigil), John, you probably wouldn't be able to tolerate adrafinil either. Remember that one of adrafinil's metabolites is modafinil. Unless there's something helpful or protective of the other main metabolite of adrafinil, the fact part of it changes to modafinil would probably count it out for you.
>
> You said you had an hour of it working before you got a massive headache. What dose had you taken? I find it surprising when people say they notice an immediate affect with Provigil or adrafinil. It took fully a week for me to notice a difference & then it continued improving over the next month. I'm wondering if you started with a lower dose (perhaps even 1/4 of normal) & worked it up to 1/2 the next week, then 3/4 the following week before reaching the full dose, if it might work better.
>
> Zo mentioned that she found Provigil has a fairly narrow therapeutical window & beyond it, side-effects show & negate the benefits. Less than that, it didn't seem to work. Your therapeutical window might be much lower than what's 'normal'. Seeing you probably have Provigil still kicking about, why not give it a try again at 1/4 normal dose on a weekend when you can crash from the pain, if it happens.
>
> Remember how it doesn't seem to have any strong affinity for any neurotransmitter but seems to increase over-all brain metabolism? Perhaps too much increases someplace in your brain that affects your perception of pain?
>
> Muscle relaxation & the mental calmness I feel with adrafinil was one of the last benefits to kick in. For me, it was very noticable when it did. I realised that I could be alert & bright without being tense with muscles like coiled springs. My shoulders were no longer slightly hunched, no furrowed brow, tightly held jaw, or madly tapping toes & swinging legs. My body was still & relaxed but I was alert & ready. The only other time I ever felt so relaxed was when I'd awake in the morning & then slip back into sleep. I never equated calm with alert before.
>
> Anyway, if you can tolerate it in a lowered dose, be patient about feeling the full benefits of it. Most reports I've read said it takes a while for them to happen.I don't remember the dose, but I'm sure it was strong. Unfortunately my insurance didn't cover it so i just got a few pills to try it out because it was so expensive and I wanted to make sure it was for me 1st. I threw out the rest (a few pills) after it bombed. I brought it up once with my new pdoc, but he is not a big fan of the med for some reason.
Thanks for the info on the therapeutic window and Adrafinil.
John
Posted by Ritch on April 17, 2002, at 0:03:46
In reply to Re: ADD diagnosis... OCD?, posted by mike21 on April 16, 2002, at 19:50:39
> I'm glad you pointed out that they were comorbid- it had never occured to me that they could be so closely related, just because they seem at opposite ends of the psychological spectrum. But after obsessing, I mean thinking, about it I've come up with some theories (see above post).
(snip from above post....) ....In the same respect, maybe a lack of attention could be due to a lack of positive feedback from certain dopaminergic pleasure centers of the brain. For example, social interactions are too variable to give a predictable reward, and the brain disengages itself. Like you, I find comfort in dealing with things in my own little contained world, like working on the computer. But after awhile, I get so locked in that groove, that getting out and interacting with others is difficult. I also get burned out and depressed- I think my brain just gets too tired from working at the same thing.
> From what you say about burning up too much energy on a task, I'd have to say that I do that already. It is more due to perfectionism than anything. Sometimes with a boring task, getting it as perfect as possible gives me a feeling of accomplishment and reward.
>
> I do have a hard time multi-tasking in terms of getting things done in the physical world- I tend to seek out things I am interested in, at the expense of other "boring" things that really *need* to get done.
>
> When you say you burn up too much energy than the task requires, does that mean you become perfectionistic?
>
> Mike
Fascinating post up there Mike. I have this awful mix of bipolar, ADHD, social anxiety/perfectionism, mild neuro probs. with mild LD (CAPD/dyslexia), and they are all intertwined together. It is interesting that amongst the symptoms of ADHD, perfectionism and shyness is commonly listed. My pdoc tells me that my social anxiety/perfectionism is the result of abnormally hypercritical parents that I could never please, and I have over-generalized my responses to them to everybody else in my environment-the trick is to understand that most folks are not as *perfectionistic* as my parents and generally don't give my achievements/behaviour that much scrutiny-so why not just chill out? Of course, genetic predispositions are there making it tough for me as it was made tough for my parents.Enough of that-what about the multitasking thing? SSRI's enhance my ability to multitask. Stimulants tend to hinder it. I think the "locked in a groove thing" is a good place to be if you are trying to study-read-listen-comprehend something new. When it bites you in the ass is when you are doing something that you are already very familiar with. When I get hyperfocused on something I am familiar with and I am taking a stimulant..I start seeing a lot of subtle permutations that I didn't seem to be aware of that somehow need to get "worked out". This is usually work-related logical minutiae (sp?), that really requires only a glossy summary at best-and I wind up burning double the time on it that it really warrants.
I think where the ADHD and OCD differ is the sense of "reward" that you speak about. With my ADHD problems I never seem to reach the *end* of anything. *Time* doesn't seem to have distinct start/stop points. I don't *feel* any kind of *reward* for *anything* that is task oriented. Everything tends to seem like a work in progress. If you give me too much to work on I freak out because I don't know where/what to start and what to finish first!
I think with the OCD there is a "reward" thing like you say that gets released when the "loop" is successful. And reward is related to dopaminergic transmission. I guess it could be possible that in OCD you may be "self-rewarding" yourself for something that doesn't *deserve* a reward: counting all your crayons, i.e.. SO... do you try to snip that circuit in two electro-chemically or find a way to *not* experience the REWARD reinforcement by not *feeling* the sense of reward for something that doesn't deserve that feeling? Sorry, if this is a little improvised.
Mitch
Posted by omega man on April 17, 2002, at 10:18:04
In reply to Re: ANYONE'S ANXIETY HELPED BY A STIMULANT?, posted by jonh kimble on April 15, 2002, at 21:06:38
I have had chronic anxiety 12 years...eight spent hooked on benzo's..after withdrawal hell I tried all types of stimulant approaches
i.e. effexor ..prozac type lots of stuff...which seems to make the mind and body so highly strung that the anxiety becomes excitement and positive energy..
but the quality of thinking or perception mmnnn seemed sort of like continual train ..because your drug regime has little to do with the dynamic of real life...I mean if you have your head continually buzzed with stimulants it can piss people off..when in fact you may need to listen to what life is telling you...
omega 3 oil which is the food of intelligence (fish) helped with my thinking and seemed to give my mind space..and this makes sense when you think of the brain as a volume of electricity and the high quality fat of omega 3 stops the neural feedback that results in brain regions overloading and blocking the whole organ acting en masse..
I would say that after a year that omega 3 is my choice for anxiety..the anxiety I had was not being able to think..to be overloaded by events ..along with particular neurotransmitter adjustments..which I believe should be done as needed to shock the brain back into producing its own and then stopping to let the body lead you to the foods and drugs which you really need..
NOT to take the drugs every day..but to stop and start ..during stopping you take a break ..go food shopping play with lots of drugs ..and let your mind and body lead you to the key..and in a drug crazed society you may find that biggest shock is that after a while you are just fine with nothing..I would never have believed ten years or even three months ago that oil tablets would stop my anxiety..but with all these drugs filling my drawers including benzos..I choose the chemical Omega 3 ...and occasionally I reach for whatever else to jump start the transmitter deficit but omega 3 allows me to think..and to be in situations of extreme stimulation complexity aND PRESSURE (Social) ....when one cannot be social one loses what it is to be human and the isolation creates more need to take drugs..
like the saying goes do not adjust your mind the fault is in reality is not true of course..but on this forum people need to be reminded that this is a huge part of the process of getting well..
Omega 3 gives me the space to take in reality..the space to see how my hurt from the past clouds my judgement of social situations...but most importantly omega 3 is the intelligence chemical and to have the space to be laid back with your own transmitter profileand not zonked or spangled or hyperenergetic is a step from a very complicated process to gain the mental space to deal with the competitive and social situtations ..
Sorry to ramble..
> Hi, I know in my experience with social anxiety with some g.a.d, i have not responded to other anxiety agents. although anxiety is considered to be mediated through serotonin or gaba dysfunction, i believe that dopamine also plays a large yet unknown part, as it does in depression and social anxiety as well. this may explain why you do well on stims. i dont have any expereince with amisulpride, but it is totally a dopamine drug that benefits anxiety, social anxiety and depression. you may want to find out more about amisulpride, i know i sure do.
>
> jon
Posted by Spongemomsquarepants on April 17, 2002, at 12:20:12
In reply to Re: ANYONE'S ANXIETY HELPED BY A STIMULANT?, posted by jonh kimble on April 15, 2002, at 21:06:38
Hi,
I am helped a great deal with Adderall XR. I started taking it for ADHD 3 weeks ago, and I can't believe the difference. I have been taking 1.5 mg of klonopin for about the past 8 years for generalized anxiety.
Viki
Posted by JohnX2 on April 18, 2002, at 2:34:28
In reply to Re: ANYONE'S ANXIETY HELPED BY A STIMULANT?, posted by omega man on April 17, 2002, at 10:18:04
> omega 3 oil which is the food of intelligence (fish) helped with my thinking and seemed to give my mind space..and this makes sense when you think of the brain as a volume of electricity and the high quality fat of omega 3 stops the neural feedback that results in brain regions overloading and blocking the whole organ acting en masse..
>
....>
> Sorry to ramble..
>Thanks for the tip!
John
Posted by mike21 on April 18, 2002, at 18:49:59
In reply to Re: ADD diagnosis... OCD? » mike21, posted by Ritch on April 17, 2002, at 0:03:46
> > I'm glad you pointed out that they were comorbid- it had never occured to me that they could be so closely related, just because they seem at opposite ends of the psychological spectrum. But after obsessing, I mean thinking, about it I've come up with some theories (see above post).
>
> (snip from above post....) ....In the same respect, maybe a lack of attention could be due to a lack of positive feedback from certain dopaminergic pleasure centers of the brain. For example, social interactions are too variable to give a predictable reward, and the brain disengages itself. Like you, I find comfort in dealing with things in my own little contained world, like working on the computer. But after awhile, I get so locked in that groove, that getting out and interacting with others is difficult. I also get burned out and depressed- I think my brain just gets too tired from working at the same thing.
>
> > From what you say about burning up too much energy on a task, I'd have to say that I do that already. It is more due to perfectionism than anything. Sometimes with a boring task, getting it as perfect as possible gives me a feeling of accomplishment and reward.
> >
> > I do have a hard time multi-tasking in terms of getting things done in the physical world- I tend to seek out things I am interested in, at the expense of other "boring" things that really *need* to get done.
> >
> > When you say you burn up too much energy than the task requires, does that mean you become perfectionistic?
> >
> > Mike
>
>
> Fascinating post up there Mike. I have this awful mix of bipolar, ADHD, social anxiety/perfectionism, mild neuro probs. with mild LD (CAPD/dyslexia), and they are all intertwined together. It is interesting that amongst the symptoms of ADHD, perfectionism and shyness is commonly listed. My pdoc tells me that my social anxiety/perfectionism is the result of abnormally hypercritical parents that I could never please, and I have over-generalized my responses to them to everybody else in my environment-the trick is to understand that most folks are not as *perfectionistic* as my parents and generally don't give my achievements/behaviour that much scrutiny-so why not just chill out? Of course, genetic predispositions are there making it tough for me as it was made tough for my parents.
>
> Enough of that-what about the multitasking thing? SSRI's enhance my ability to multitask. Stimulants tend to hinder it. I think the "locked in a groove thing" is a good place to be if you are trying to study-read-listen-comprehend something new. When it bites you in the ass is when you are doing something that you are already very familiar with. When I get hyperfocused on something I am familiar with and I am taking a stimulant..I start seeing a lot of subtle permutations that I didn't seem to be aware of that somehow need to get "worked out". This is usually work-related logical minutiae (sp?), that really requires only a glossy summary at best-and I wind up burning double the time on it that it really warrants.
>
> I think where the ADHD and OCD differ is the sense of "reward" that you speak about. With my ADHD problems I never seem to reach the *end* of anything. *Time* doesn't seem to have distinct start/stop points. I don't *feel* any kind of *reward* for *anything* that is task oriented. Everything tends to seem like a work in progress. If you give me too much to work on I freak out because I don't know where/what to start and what to finish first!
>
> I think with the OCD there is a "reward" thing like you say that gets released when the "loop" is successful. And reward is related to dopaminergic transmission. I guess it could be possible that in OCD you may be "self-rewarding" yourself for something that doesn't *deserve* a reward: counting all your crayons, i.e.. SO... do you try to snip that circuit in two electro-chemically or find a way to *not* experience the REWARD reinforcement by not *feeling* the sense of reward for something that doesn't deserve that feeling? Sorry, if this is a little improvised.
>
> MitchI have the same problem getting caught up in work-related minutia that is pointless. I have to keep asking myself- is this value added? Frequently I find that it's not.
As far as the question of snipping the circuit in two or stopping the feeling of reward from occuring goes... Well, I guess you mean an SSRI would help to keep the circuit from going on indefinitely, and that some sort of dopamine antagonist-type drug would stop the feeling of reward. I don't know.
I think the answer is to tickle the pleasure centers enough so you don't have to look for b.s. ways of getting reward.
My longest trial on an SSRI was 6 months- prozac. My recollection of it was that it didn't help my general dysphoric outlook on life- but it did seem to help my social life. On the other hand, I behaved much more compulsively and in some ways recklessly on that drug. My opinion of the whole thing was that it didn't get to the root of the problem, but made coping easier.
As far as stopping the reward goes, I can't speak from a med standpoint. I don't think I'd want to try naltrexone, an opioid antagonist. Seems like that would maybe take away one's only feeling of pleasure in the world, both OCD and just normal good feeling.
And to me, that's the same idea behind stopping compulsions in favor of exposing oneself to anxiety-provoking situations. It may take away the fear, but for me it doesn't tend to give me any greater enjoyment of that situation. For example, I could talk to people non-stop all day long- I would end up stressed out and would have been acting the whole time.
That's why I believe in some sort of deficient pleasure system, not serotonergic, definitely not norepinephrine. But that's just my theory today. It tends to change a lot lately.
In the meantime, I'm trying not to get wrapped around the axle trying to figure out my situation. Sometimes I get the feeling I'm looking for something that's not there- or at least is not available yet.
Mike
Posted by katekite on April 18, 2002, at 22:58:35
In reply to Re: ADD diagnosis... OCD? » Ritch, posted by mike21 on April 18, 2002, at 18:49:59
Yeah sometimes I feel like we are all here 10 years too early. Think of how many ssris and mood stabilizers have been developed in the last ten years, the pace has picked up really quickly. I just hope the market isn't satisfied with what's available. Since I haven't quite found something perfect for me.
To update you on how ritalin is going, I think it was you who posted to me a few days back, I had to decrease it because of chest pain. boo hoo. I actually stopped it altogether but was back to pulling my hair again. And I'm up late now because I was trying not to need it to go to sleep. I will try some other stimulants and see if they like me better.
kate
Posted by Ritch on April 18, 2002, at 23:26:01
In reply to Re: ADD diagnosis... OCD? » Ritch, posted by mike21 on April 18, 2002, at 18:49:59
> > > I'm glad you pointed out that they were comorbid- it had never occured to me that they could be so closely related, just because they seem at opposite ends of the psychological spectrum. But after obsessing, I mean thinking, about it I've come up with some theories (see above post).
> >
> > (snip from above post....) ....In the same respect, maybe a lack of attention could be due to a lack of positive feedback from certain dopaminergic pleasure centers of the brain. For example, social interactions are too variable to give a predictable reward, and the brain disengages itself. Like you, I find comfort in dealing with things in my own little contained world, like working on the computer. But after awhile, I get so locked in that groove, that getting out and interacting with others is difficult. I also get burned out and depressed- I think my brain just gets too tired from working at the same thing.
> >
> > > From what you say about burning up too much energy on a task, I'd have to say that I do that already. It is more due to perfectionism than anything. Sometimes with a boring task, getting it as perfect as possible gives me a feeling of accomplishment and reward.
> > >
> > > I do have a hard time multi-tasking in terms of getting things done in the physical world- I tend to seek out things I am interested in, at the expense of other "boring" things that really *need* to get done.
> > >
> > > When you say you burn up too much energy than the task requires, does that mean you become perfectionistic?
> > >
> > > Mike
> >
> >
> > Fascinating post up there Mike. I have this awful mix of bipolar, ADHD, social anxiety/perfectionism, mild neuro probs. with mild LD (CAPD/dyslexia), and they are all intertwined together. It is interesting that amongst the symptoms of ADHD, perfectionism and shyness is commonly listed. My pdoc tells me that my social anxiety/perfectionism is the result of abnormally hypercritical parents that I could never please, and I have over-generalized my responses to them to everybody else in my environment-the trick is to understand that most folks are not as *perfectionistic* as my parents and generally don't give my achievements/behaviour that much scrutiny-so why not just chill out? Of course, genetic predispositions are there making it tough for me as it was made tough for my parents.
> >
> > Enough of that-what about the multitasking thing? SSRI's enhance my ability to multitask. Stimulants tend to hinder it. I think the "locked in a groove thing" is a good place to be if you are trying to study-read-listen-comprehend something new. When it bites you in the ass is when you are doing something that you are already very familiar with. When I get hyperfocused on something I am familiar with and I am taking a stimulant..I start seeing a lot of subtle permutations that I didn't seem to be aware of that somehow need to get "worked out". This is usually work-related logical minutiae (sp?), that really requires only a glossy summary at best-and I wind up burning double the time on it that it really warrants.
> >
> > I think where the ADHD and OCD differ is the sense of "reward" that you speak about. With my ADHD problems I never seem to reach the *end* of anything. *Time* doesn't seem to have distinct start/stop points. I don't *feel* any kind of *reward* for *anything* that is task oriented. Everything tends to seem like a work in progress. If you give me too much to work on I freak out because I don't know where/what to start and what to finish first!
> >
> > I think with the OCD there is a "reward" thing like you say that gets released when the "loop" is successful. And reward is related to dopaminergic transmission. I guess it could be possible that in OCD you may be "self-rewarding" yourself for something that doesn't *deserve* a reward: counting all your crayons, i.e.. SO... do you try to snip that circuit in two electro-chemically or find a way to *not* experience the REWARD reinforcement by not *feeling* the sense of reward for something that doesn't deserve that feeling? Sorry, if this is a little improvised.
> >
> > Mitch
>
> I have the same problem getting caught up in work-related minutia that is pointless. I have to keep asking myself- is this value added? Frequently I find that it's not.
>
> As far as the question of snipping the circuit in two or stopping the feeling of reward from occuring goes... Well, I guess you mean an SSRI would help to keep the circuit from going on indefinitely, and that some sort of dopamine antagonist-type drug would stop the feeling of reward. I don't know.
>
> I think the answer is to tickle the pleasure centers enough so you don't have to look for b.s. ways of getting reward.
>
> My longest trial on an SSRI was 6 months- prozac. My recollection of it was that it didn't help my general dysphoric outlook on life- but it did seem to help my social life. On the other hand, I behaved much more compulsively and in some ways recklessly on that drug. My opinion of the whole thing was that it didn't get to the root of the problem, but made coping easier.
>
> As far as stopping the reward goes, I can't speak from a med standpoint. I don't think I'd want to try naltrexone, an opioid antagonist. Seems like that would maybe take away one's only feeling of pleasure in the world, both OCD and just normal good feeling.
>
> And to me, that's the same idea behind stopping compulsions in favor of exposing oneself to anxiety-provoking situations. It may take away the fear, but for me it doesn't tend to give me any greater enjoyment of that situation. For example, I could talk to people non-stop all day long- I would end up stressed out and would have been acting the whole time.
>
> That's why I believe in some sort of deficient pleasure system, not serotonergic, definitely not norepinephrine. But that's just my theory today. It tends to change a lot lately.
>
> In the meantime, I'm trying not to get wrapped around the axle trying to figure out my situation. Sometimes I get the feeling I'm looking for something that's not there- or at least is not available yet.
>
> Mike
Mike,Basically what I want to say is that SSRI meds are not all the same. Just curious, but have you tried others besides Prozac? What was your experience with the others? It is interesting that with OCD you are *looking* for things to *do* to feel better, whereas with ADHD symptoms I just want to *eliminate* all the unnecessary "noise" so I can *reduce* what I feel that I need to get done! A good analogy is wearing bad eyeglasses and sitting in the front row at a movie theatre and trying to figure out what is going on over here and over there, and only hearing the dialogue between the characters at the places you are looking at (which is changing rapidly). The good thing about behavioural therapy (exposure/CBT) is that it does have some *structure*. When I was taking Wellbutrin for my latest seasonal depressive thingie I got wired up and panicky on it a few times and found myself using some cognitive skills to quell the panicky feelings, and it was moderately successful.
Mitch
Posted by mike21 on April 19, 2002, at 8:52:43
In reply to Re: ADD diagnosis... OCD? » mike21, posted by Ritch on April 18, 2002, at 23:26:01
> > > > I'm glad you pointed out that they were comorbid- it had never occured to me that they could be so closely related, just because they seem at opposite ends of the psychological spectrum. But after obsessing, I mean thinking, about it I've come up with some theories (see above post).
> > >
> > > (snip from above post....) ....In the same respect, maybe a lack of attention could be due to a lack of positive feedback from certain dopaminergic pleasure centers of the brain. For example, social interactions are too variable to give a predictable reward, and the brain disengages itself. Like you, I find comfort in dealing with things in my own little contained world, like working on the computer. But after awhile, I get so locked in that groove, that getting out and interacting with others is difficult. I also get burned out and depressed- I think my brain just gets too tired from working at the same thing.
> > >
> > > > From what you say about burning up too much energy on a task, I'd have to say that I do that already. It is more due to perfectionism than anything. Sometimes with a boring task, getting it as perfect as possible gives me a feeling of accomplishment and reward.
> > > >
> > > > I do have a hard time multi-tasking in terms of getting things done in the physical world- I tend to seek out things I am interested in, at the expense of other "boring" things that really *need* to get done.
> > > >
> > > > When you say you burn up too much energy than the task requires, does that mean you become perfectionistic?
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > Fascinating post up there Mike. I have this awful mix of bipolar, ADHD, social anxiety/perfectionism, mild neuro probs. with mild LD (CAPD/dyslexia), and they are all intertwined together. It is interesting that amongst the symptoms of ADHD, perfectionism and shyness is commonly listed. My pdoc tells me that my social anxiety/perfectionism is the result of abnormally hypercritical parents that I could never please, and I have over-generalized my responses to them to everybody else in my environment-the trick is to understand that most folks are not as *perfectionistic* as my parents and generally don't give my achievements/behaviour that much scrutiny-so why not just chill out? Of course, genetic predispositions are there making it tough for me as it was made tough for my parents.
> > >
> > > Enough of that-what about the multitasking thing? SSRI's enhance my ability to multitask. Stimulants tend to hinder it. I think the "locked in a groove thing" is a good place to be if you are trying to study-read-listen-comprehend something new. When it bites you in the ass is when you are doing something that you are already very familiar with. When I get hyperfocused on something I am familiar with and I am taking a stimulant..I start seeing a lot of subtle permutations that I didn't seem to be aware of that somehow need to get "worked out". This is usually work-related logical minutiae (sp?), that really requires only a glossy summary at best-and I wind up burning double the time on it that it really warrants.
> > >
> > > I think where the ADHD and OCD differ is the sense of "reward" that you speak about. With my ADHD problems I never seem to reach the *end* of anything. *Time* doesn't seem to have distinct start/stop points. I don't *feel* any kind of *reward* for *anything* that is task oriented. Everything tends to seem like a work in progress. If you give me too much to work on I freak out because I don't know where/what to start and what to finish first!
> > >
> > > I think with the OCD there is a "reward" thing like you say that gets released when the "loop" is successful. And reward is related to dopaminergic transmission. I guess it could be possible that in OCD you may be "self-rewarding" yourself for something that doesn't *deserve* a reward: counting all your crayons, i.e.. SO... do you try to snip that circuit in two electro-chemically or find a way to *not* experience the REWARD reinforcement by not *feeling* the sense of reward for something that doesn't deserve that feeling? Sorry, if this is a little improvised.
> > >
> > > Mitch
> >
> > I have the same problem getting caught up in work-related minutia that is pointless. I have to keep asking myself- is this value added? Frequently I find that it's not.
> >
> > As far as the question of snipping the circuit in two or stopping the feeling of reward from occuring goes... Well, I guess you mean an SSRI would help to keep the circuit from going on indefinitely, and that some sort of dopamine antagonist-type drug would stop the feeling of reward. I don't know.
> >
> > I think the answer is to tickle the pleasure centers enough so you don't have to look for b.s. ways of getting reward.
> >
> > My longest trial on an SSRI was 6 months- prozac. My recollection of it was that it didn't help my general dysphoric outlook on life- but it did seem to help my social life. On the other hand, I behaved much more compulsively and in some ways recklessly on that drug. My opinion of the whole thing was that it didn't get to the root of the problem, but made coping easier.
> >
> > As far as stopping the reward goes, I can't speak from a med standpoint. I don't think I'd want to try naltrexone, an opioid antagonist. Seems like that would maybe take away one's only feeling of pleasure in the world, both OCD and just normal good feeling.
> >
> > And to me, that's the same idea behind stopping compulsions in favor of exposing oneself to anxiety-provoking situations. It may take away the fear, but for me it doesn't tend to give me any greater enjoyment of that situation. For example, I could talk to people non-stop all day long- I would end up stressed out and would have been acting the whole time.
> >
> > That's why I believe in some sort of deficient pleasure system, not serotonergic, definitely not norepinephrine. But that's just my theory today. It tends to change a lot lately.
> >
> > In the meantime, I'm trying not to get wrapped around the axle trying to figure out my situation. Sometimes I get the feeling I'm looking for something that's not there- or at least is not available yet.
> >
> > Mike
>
>
> Mike,
>
> Basically what I want to say is that SSRI meds are not all the same. Just curious, but have you tried others besides Prozac? What was your experience with the others? It is interesting that with OCD you are *looking* for things to *do* to feel better, whereas with ADHD symptoms I just want to *eliminate* all the unnecessary "noise" so I can *reduce* what I feel that I need to get done! A good analogy is wearing bad eyeglasses and sitting in the front row at a movie theatre and trying to figure out what is going on over here and over there, and only hearing the dialogue between the characters at the places you are looking at (which is changing rapidly). The good thing about behavioural therapy (exposure/CBT) is that it does have some *structure*. When I was taking Wellbutrin for my latest seasonal depressive thingie I got wired up and panicky on it a few times and found myself using some cognitive skills to quell the panicky feelings, and it was moderately successful.
>
> MitchHey Mitch,
Yeah, I've tried paxil, effexor, wellbutrin, and johns wort. Most of the trials (proz,pax,effex,wb) were about 6-7 years ago. I was in college, living a much different lifestyle, self-medicating to a significant degree with alcohol. I remember hoping that these meds would be the magic bullet for me, but thinking pretty quickly that they weren't doing it for me.
You could argue they deserve a better trial now, given my change of lifestyle and brain chemistry: I work a 9to5 type job, 1 or 2 drinks seems to make me depressed for a couple days, and I recently tried both effexor and wellbutrin- not strictly ssri's but the interesting thing was that I couldn't tolerate either one, whereas my past trials a few years ago seemed to give me little or no benefit at all. I tried wb for a month a few years ago and went off it cause of no benefit. I tried it for 2 weeks a few weeks ago and it made me extremely anxious (same reaction as you) and sleep deprived.
Here's my real problem with the reuptake inhibitors. I just don't buy it as a reliable form of treatment- Long term side effects seem to be unknown, their method of actually working seems to be unknown (do they slow down the firing of OR do they "prune" neurons when transmitter levels become elevated- a scary thought for me). It might be awhile before we know answers to these questions.
But for me (in my albeit *limited* exposures)it was just like I was treating a symptom and not the cause of my condition. That was awhile back, but I feel like the older I get, the more my brain adapts the best way it can, the harder it is to pinpoint what's really going on with me, what's really the deficiency here, etc. And I'm back to treating symptoms.
Anyway, maybe they deserve another shot. I guess I want to try a couple of different classes before I resort to that.
WRT to OCD/ADD- I feel like there is a movie going on in front of me, but I can't tear myself away from what's going on inside my head. Not that it's really more interesting, just that I'm enthralled by it. So I try to cope with being moderately engaged in what's in front of me while giving the rest of my attention to my thoughts.
As far as the therapy issue goes, yeah, I agree that it can provide valuable skills for coping. I was in individual therapy for 3 years and group for 1 year. It really helps me now to take an impartial look at my thoughts, and correct for any times I can get carried away with unrealistic ideas.
MIke
Posted by mike21 on April 19, 2002, at 9:14:50
In reply to the drugs 10 years from now » mike21, posted by katekite on April 18, 2002, at 22:58:35
> Yeah sometimes I feel like we are all here 10 years too early. Think of how many ssris and mood stabilizers have been developed in the last ten years, the pace has picked up really quickly. I just hope the market isn't satisfied with what's available. Since I haven't quite found something perfect for me.
>
> To update you on how ritalin is going, I think it was you who posted to me a few days back, I had to decrease it because of chest pain. boo hoo. I actually stopped it altogether but was back to pulling my hair again. And I'm up late now because I was trying not to need it to go to sleep. I will try some other stimulants and see if they like me better.
>
> kateKate,
I'm betting the drug companies have only begun to tap the market for their products. I also hope they develop better ways for diagnosing people. Maybe after 10 years of reading message boards like this one, they'll figure things out better ; )
Is chest pain a common side effect? Did your heart feel racy on it? Interesting that a stimulant helps you sleep. That's like when sedatives like valium make me more alert in social interactions. They seem like paradoxes.
I'm definitely suggesting this class of meds when I see my new doctor next week. I'll be interested to follow your trials of other stims. Please keep us posted. (Maybe you could follow-up to this thread, so I will be notified?)
Best of luck with your meds,
Mike
Posted by mike21 on April 20, 2002, at 9:36:50
In reply to Re: ADD diagnosis... OCD?, posted by mike21 on April 19, 2002, at 8:52:43
> > > > > I'm glad you pointed out that they were comorbid- it had never occured to me that they could be so closely related, just because they seem at opposite ends of the psychological spectrum. But after obsessing, I mean thinking, about it I've come up with some theories (see above post).
> > > >
> > > > (snip from above post....) ....In the same respect, maybe a lack of attention could be due to a lack of positive feedback from certain dopaminergic pleasure centers of the brain. For example, social interactions are too variable to give a predictable reward, and the brain disengages itself. Like you, I find comfort in dealing with things in my own little contained world, like working on the computer. But after awhile, I get so locked in that groove, that getting out and interacting with others is difficult. I also get burned out and depressed- I think my brain just gets too tired from working at the same thing.
> > > >
> > > > > From what you say about burning up too much energy on a task, I'd have to say that I do that already. It is more due to perfectionism than anything. Sometimes with a boring task, getting it as perfect as possible gives me a feeling of accomplishment and reward.
> > > > >
> > > > > I do have a hard time multi-tasking in terms of getting things done in the physical world- I tend to seek out things I am interested in, at the expense of other "boring" things that really *need* to get done.
> > > > >
> > > > > When you say you burn up too much energy than the task requires, does that mean you become perfectionistic?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Fascinating post up there Mike. I have this awful mix of bipolar, ADHD, social anxiety/perfectionism, mild neuro probs. with mild LD (CAPD/dyslexia), and they are all intertwined together. It is interesting that amongst the symptoms of ADHD, perfectionism and shyness is commonly listed. My pdoc tells me that my social anxiety/perfectionism is the result of abnormally hypercritical parents that I could never please, and I have over-generalized my responses to them to everybody else in my environment-the trick is to understand that most folks are not as *perfectionistic* as my parents and generally don't give my achievements/behaviour that much scrutiny-so why not just chill out? Of course, genetic predispositions are there making it tough for me as it was made tough for my parents.
> > > >
> > > > Enough of that-what about the multitasking thing? SSRI's enhance my ability to multitask. Stimulants tend to hinder it. I think the "locked in a groove thing" is a good place to be if you are trying to study-read-listen-comprehend something new. When it bites you in the ass is when you are doing something that you are already very familiar with. When I get hyperfocused on something I am familiar with and I am taking a stimulant..I start seeing a lot of subtle permutations that I didn't seem to be aware of that somehow need to get "worked out". This is usually work-related logical minutiae (sp?), that really requires only a glossy summary at best-and I wind up burning double the time on it that it really warrants.
> > > >
> > > > I think where the ADHD and OCD differ is the sense of "reward" that you speak about. With my ADHD problems I never seem to reach the *end* of anything. *Time* doesn't seem to have distinct start/stop points. I don't *feel* any kind of *reward* for *anything* that is task oriented. Everything tends to seem like a work in progress. If you give me too much to work on I freak out because I don't know where/what to start and what to finish first!
> > > >
> > > > I think with the OCD there is a "reward" thing like you say that gets released when the "loop" is successful. And reward is related to dopaminergic transmission. I guess it could be possible that in OCD you may be "self-rewarding" yourself for something that doesn't *deserve* a reward: counting all your crayons, i.e.. SO... do you try to snip that circuit in two electro-chemically or find a way to *not* experience the REWARD reinforcement by not *feeling* the sense of reward for something that doesn't deserve that feeling? Sorry, if this is a little improvised.
> > > >
> > > > Mitch
> > >
> > > I have the same problem getting caught up in work-related minutia that is pointless. I have to keep asking myself- is this value added? Frequently I find that it's not.
> > >
> > > As far as the question of snipping the circuit in two or stopping the feeling of reward from occuring goes... Well, I guess you mean an SSRI would help to keep the circuit from going on indefinitely, and that some sort of dopamine antagonist-type drug would stop the feeling of reward. I don't know.
> > >
> > > I think the answer is to tickle the pleasure centers enough so you don't have to look for b.s. ways of getting reward.
> > >
> > > My longest trial on an SSRI was 6 months- prozac. My recollection of it was that it didn't help my general dysphoric outlook on life- but it did seem to help my social life. On the other hand, I behaved much more compulsively and in some ways recklessly on that drug. My opinion of the whole thing was that it didn't get to the root of the problem, but made coping easier.
> > >
> > > As far as stopping the reward goes, I can't speak from a med standpoint. I don't think I'd want to try naltrexone, an opioid antagonist. Seems like that would maybe take away one's only feeling of pleasure in the world, both OCD and just normal good feeling.
> > >
> > > And to me, that's the same idea behind stopping compulsions in favor of exposing oneself to anxiety-provoking situations. It may take away the fear, but for me it doesn't tend to give me any greater enjoyment of that situation. For example, I could talk to people non-stop all day long- I would end up stressed out and would have been acting the whole time.
> > >
> > > That's why I believe in some sort of deficient pleasure system, not serotonergic, definitely not norepinephrine. But that's just my theory today. It tends to change a lot lately.
> > >
> > > In the meantime, I'm trying not to get wrapped around the axle trying to figure out my situation. Sometimes I get the feeling I'm looking for something that's not there- or at least is not available yet.
> > >
> > > Mike
> >
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > Basically what I want to say is that SSRI meds are not all the same. Just curious, but have you tried others besides Prozac? What was your experience with the others? It is interesting that with OCD you are *looking* for things to *do* to feel better, whereas with ADHD symptoms I just want to *eliminate* all the unnecessary "noise" so I can *reduce* what I feel that I need to get done! A good analogy is wearing bad eyeglasses and sitting in the front row at a movie theatre and trying to figure out what is going on over here and over there, and only hearing the dialogue between the characters at the places you are looking at (which is changing rapidly). The good thing about behavioural therapy (exposure/CBT) is that it does have some *structure*. When I was taking Wellbutrin for my latest seasonal depressive thingie I got wired up and panicky on it a few times and found myself using some cognitive skills to quell the panicky feelings, and it was moderately successful.
> >
> > Mitch
>
> Hey Mitch,
>
> Yeah, I've tried paxil, effexor, wellbutrin, and johns wort. Most of the trials (proz,pax,effex,wb) were about 6-7 years ago. I was in college, living a much different lifestyle, self-medicating to a significant degree with alcohol. I remember hoping that these meds would be the magic bullet for me, but thinking pretty quickly that they weren't doing it for me.
>
> You could argue they deserve a better trial now, given my change of lifestyle and brain chemistry: I work a 9to5 type job, 1 or 2 drinks seems to make me depressed for a couple days, and I recently tried both effexor and wellbutrin- not strictly ssri's but the interesting thing was that I couldn't tolerate either one, whereas my past trials a few years ago seemed to give me little or no benefit at all. I tried wb for a month a few years ago and went off it cause of no benefit. I tried it for 2 weeks a few weeks ago and it made me extremely anxious (same reaction as you) and sleep deprived.
>
> Here's my real problem with the reuptake inhibitors. I just don't buy it as a reliable form of treatment- Long term side effects seem to be unknown, their method of actually working seems to be unknown (do they slow down the firing of OR do they "prune" neurons when transmitter levels become elevated- a scary thought for me). It might be awhile before we know answers to these questions.
>
> But for me (in my albeit *limited* exposures)it was just like I was treating a symptom and not the cause of my condition. That was awhile back, but I feel like the older I get, the more my brain adapts the best way it can, the harder it is to pinpoint what's really going on with me, what's really the deficiency here, etc. And I'm back to treating symptoms.
>
> Anyway, maybe they deserve another shot. I guess I want to try a couple of different classes before I resort to that.
>
> WRT to OCD/ADD- I feel like there is a movie going on in front of me, but I can't tear myself away from what's going on inside my head. Not that it's really more interesting, just that I'm enthralled by it. So I try to cope with being moderately engaged in what's in front of me while giving the rest of my attention to my thoughts.
>
> As far as the therapy issue goes, yeah, I agree that it can provide valuable skills for coping. I was in individual therapy for 3 years and group for 1 year. It really helps me now to take an impartial look at my thoughts, and correct for any times I can get carried away with unrealistic ideas.
>
> MIkeOh yeah, Mitch, I guess I should include a lot of other meds in that class of "method of action not well understood and long-term effects unknown." I just think in the current ssri-craze, some other possibilities for me have been overlooked. These others have their own risks, and I guess the potential for benefit is starting to outweigh the risk.
Anyway, thanks for your descriptions on what it's like living with ADD. You've given me a lot to think about.
Good luck with your meds and take care,
Mike
Posted by IsoM on April 20, 2002, at 11:34:01
In reply to Re: ADD diagnosis... OCD? » mike21, posted by Ritch on April 18, 2002, at 23:26:01
Mitch, when you mentioned that you wanted to eliminate all the "noise", that's how I describe what I see (plus hear - I think of it as sensory overload). So I'm wondering if you fit Irlen syndrome too. I was tested for it by a certified tester & rated 'very high'. Perhaps you have it too. It's considered a real (not New Age) condition by the American govenment as they're funding money for more research into this condition.
http://www.readingandwriting.ab.ca/judypool/irlen.htm
The low contrast version on the above home page is SO much easier on my eyes. I didn't buy a bonafide pair of lenses (testing will indicate which colour works best for you) but still the sun glasses (not really sun glasses but those 'trendy' coloured nonprescription ones you see about) I bought are more soothing than regular sight.
Now, if there was only something that I could use to elminate all the external (& internal) background noises I hear that interfere with hearing & concentration.
I seriously think (from what I've read in all the science journals over many years) that the large & constant amount of DDT & other pesticides that I was exposed to in utero & through my growing years has contributed strongly to my ADD & sensory sensitivity. It seems to be something that runs in my family, but my sons & I seem far more affected than my parents & relatives. My sons are probably affected from the pesticides being passed on in the fatty content of my milk. I nursed them for a long time each.
Posted by Ritch on April 20, 2002, at 16:49:13
In reply to ADD, Irlen Syndrome, and sensory sensitivity too? » Ritch, posted by IsoM on April 20, 2002, at 11:34:01
> Mitch, when you mentioned that you wanted to eliminate all the "noise", that's how I describe what I see (plus hear - I think of it as sensory overload). So I'm wondering if you fit Irlen syndrome too. I was tested for it by a certified tester & rated 'very high'. Perhaps you have it too. It's considered a real (not New Age) condition by the American govenment as they're funding money for more research into this condition.
>
> http://www.readingandwriting.ab.ca/judypool/irlen.htm
>
> The low contrast version on the above home page is SO much easier on my eyes. I didn't buy a bonafide pair of lenses (testing will indicate which colour works best for you) but still the sun glasses (not really sun glasses but those 'trendy' coloured nonprescription ones you see about) I bought are more soothing than regular sight.
>
> Now, if there was only something that I could use to elminate all the external (& internal) background noises I hear that interfere with hearing & concentration.
>
> I seriously think (from what I've read in all the science journals over many years) that the large & constant amount of DDT & other pesticides that I was exposed to in utero & through my growing years has contributed strongly to my ADD & sensory sensitivity. It seems to be something that runs in my family, but my sons & I seem far more affected than my parents & relatives. My sons are probably affected from the pesticides being passed on in the fatty content of my milk. I nursed them for a long time each.
Hi IsoM,Thanks for that link. I don't think that is my trouble though. I am beginning to think it isn't even ADHD really. I think it is a combo of bipolar *and* an auditory processing disorder with some dyslexia. Here are some links that I found quick (I haven't read all of it-there is just too much). The first link has to do with CAPD.
http://216.239.35.100/search?q=cache:xSTmtUiMzwsC:journals.asha.org/1059-0089/v5n2/041.pdf+Central+Auditory+Processing+temporal+lobes&hl=en
http://nba19.med.uth.tmc.edu/faculty/faculty.htm
http://thalamus.wustl.edu/course/
I was surprised to find out that dyslexia is a phonemic decoding problem not necessarily a problem with flipped letters/numbers and such. Different meds affect my ability to understand what people are saying to a great degree. My attentional deficits are the most pronounced when it comes to listening to someone else talk and needing to follow along with what they are saying. I do have trouble with reading, too, but nothing like human speech. The worst case scenario would be someone telling me directions on how to get somewhere or how to do something that I have never done before. I am always asking questions over and over and have awful problems keeping all of it in order. Central auditory processing is done by the temporal lobes and that is where some of the weird phenomena I experience seems to exist. When I tried dexedrine back over a few weeks I noticed that when the medication was peaking I would smell something burning for a few moments here and there. I already have music playing in there off and on sometimes quite intrusively. Neurontin and Depakote quiet it down. Of course SSRI tends to intensify it. With Prozac I could read something that someone else had written (and if I knew the author) I could hear their voice in my head reading it as clear as day. (I could read "aloud" in my head in the voice of the writer if I knew that person well). I chalk it all up to just odd wiring-there seems to be a lot of "jumpers" that have been created to "work around" the problems (whatever they are). I can do fantastic at tasks I understand well, and I can listen to people I know well fairly OK. When someone I haven't heard speak before that is when I can get really lost-Hmmm.. maybe that has something to do with the social anxiety?? OF course, I do nothing but create more questions rather than answers.Mitch
Posted by IsoM on April 21, 2002, at 0:24:27
In reply to Re: ADD, Irlen Syndrome, and sensory sensitivity too? » IsoM, posted by Ritch on April 20, 2002, at 16:49:13
Okay, Mitch, I know now what your problem is. You're weird - just like me, that's why I recognise it so well. I thought at one time I might've had CAPD but while I have trouble following people talking, it's not CAPD. I can hear singing & talking in my head in other's voices too, if I know them well. Sometimes at night when I'm falling asleep, I can hear snatches of conversation in these other voices. I figure my brain's replaying audio memories.
Even though I have trouble keeping track of audio memories, I can still listen to more than one conversation at a time & keep track of what's said, & respond to both, if necessary but still can't remember them after a short period of time. But then I can't remember most conversations even when I really try.
I bet a lot of these problems that we have have much to do with the time frame that environmental poisons affect us during fetal development - at what stage the brain is developing in utero. Just a theory of mine. (Remember John Cleese in a Monty Python skit as a plain female scientist going on about 'her' theory of dinosaurs? Every time I say 'theory', that skit leaps into my head.)
Posted by Ritch on April 21, 2002, at 12:16:19
In reply to CAPD » Ritch, posted by IsoM on April 21, 2002, at 0:24:27
> Okay, Mitch, I know now what your problem is. You're weird - just like me, that's why I recognise it so well. I thought at one time I might've had CAPD but while I have trouble following people talking, it's not CAPD. I can hear singing & talking in my head in other's voices too, if I know them well. Sometimes at night when I'm falling asleep, I can hear snatches of conversation in these other voices. I figure my brain's replaying audio memories.
>
> Even though I have trouble keeping track of audio memories, I can still listen to more than one conversation at a time & keep track of what's said, & respond to both, if necessary but still can't remember them after a short period of time. But then I can't remember most conversations even when I really try.
>
> I bet a lot of these problems that we have have much to do with the time frame that environmental poisons affect us during fetal development - at what stage the brain is developing in utero. Just a theory of mine. (Remember John Cleese in a Monty Python skit as a plain female scientist going on about 'her' theory of dinosaurs? Every time I say 'theory', that skit leaps into my head.)
Thanks!, I get statements from people I work with like: "You are too weird for the world", "Get a Belltone!", stuff like that, but... I can usually get them to chuckle quite a bit so that makes it OK. Some of the stuff I *think* that I hear them say really gets them going. It has been so long since Python watching-I used to watch it religiously as a kid. If I "saw" the episode it would probably click. Back to the meds/CAPD stuff: There is one very very interesting thing amongst the prominent symtpoms and that is a sound lateralization thing (the ability to detect/pinpoint where a particular sound is coming from. I have been aware of this *transient* problem for some time. Sound just seems to be coming from everywhere at times. There have been two situations with medications where music was coming straight out of the speakers and it felt perfectly "directional"-especially voice/lyrical stuff. One was when I was taking Adderall, and the other was when I combined Celexa (tiny dose) with Pergolide (a tiny dose of a DA agonist). According to the lit on CAPD you have to have enough neurotransmitter in the temporal lobes to get the processing done. Also, my "ADHD" improves in a direct correlation with my ability to listen and understand spoken speech and process it with working memory. Hmmm.Mitch
Posted by IsoM on April 21, 2002, at 13:10:37
In reply to Re: CAPD » IsoM, posted by Ritch on April 21, 2002, at 12:16:19
Wouldn't it be nice to be a very well treated lab human as they ran batteries of interesting, NON-INVASIVE tests on us with only the occasional vial of blood drawn.
Conversstion:
"So - what do you do for work?"
"I'm a science experiment."
"What? Do they keep you in a cage along with the other lab rats?"
"Of course not. I have a 20 room place with cook, butler, & cleaning staff. They want me in an unruffled mood prior to tests so I also have my own massage therapist & an indoor heating swimming pool."
"Did they tell you that tomorrow you're to be dissected & slices of your brain are being scanned?"
"...uh, excuse me while I quickly pack...."
Posted by Ritch on April 21, 2002, at 14:59:52
In reply to We need to donate our LIVING brains to science » Ritch, posted by IsoM on April 21, 2002, at 13:10:37
> Wouldn't it be nice to be a very well treated lab human as they ran batteries of interesting, NON-INVASIVE tests on us with only the occasional vial of blood drawn.
>
> Conversstion:
> "So - what do you do for work?"
> "I'm a science experiment."
> "What? Do they keep you in a cage along with the other lab rats?"
> "Of course not. I have a 20 room place with cook, butler, & cleaning staff. They want me in an unruffled mood prior to tests so I also have my own massage therapist & an indoor heating swimming pool."
> "Did they tell you that tomorrow you're to be dissected & slices of your brain are being scanned?"
> "...uh, excuse me while I quickly pack...."
Hey, I would volunteer to be a part of some type of research, especially that SPECT stuff (while taking certain meds). There was a pregabalin trial that came up a while back and I almost tried to get in that one. I would like to get a 24-hr ambulatory EEG, an MRI, and a polysomnogram (sleep-study) done just to rule anything out. The neuro I saw a couple of years back wanted to follow up standard EEG with all of that-but I didn't want to spend the $$$, and I figured it probably is all just bipolar crap anyhow.Oh, I've got to tell you that SAMe does help, BTW. I ran out of it at the same time I ran out of dexedrine over a week ago. I took a little of a nosedive for a couple of days and haven't felt quite right since (esp. extreme short bouts of fatigue during the day). Yesterday I came close to having a panic attack-not situational a free-floating one. I started scanning over my mood chart and noticed that I had ran out of SAMe at the same time as the dex., so I went and got a fresh bottle of it and took one tab yesterday afternoon and then took another tab this morning and I do feel a lot better. Also, while I was in the mood chart I noticed that I nearly successfully got off Celexa while I was on the dex+SAMe. You are right about possibly using a stimulant to withdraw from SSRI. However, when I ran out of dex., I have had to restart the Celexa and take a tiny bit every day since. So, I don't know what help it would be...?
Mitch
Posted by Zo on April 21, 2002, at 22:23:59
In reply to ADD, Irlen Syndrome, and sensory sensitivity too? » Ritch, posted by IsoM on April 20, 2002, at 11:34:01
Iso! Me too! DDT exposures as a kid, four years of a neighbor's heavy use of herbicides before my CFS crash. . .Canaries in the coal mine, kid!
Zo
Posted by IsoM on April 22, 2002, at 0:49:24
In reply to Re: ADD, Irlen Syndrome, and sensory sensitivity t » IsoM, posted by Zo on April 21, 2002, at 22:23:59
I think what's amazing is that our poor brains still manage to work at all. I remember when I was in junior high school, films where dark, little native kids were dusted with DDT from head to toe to control hair lice. They were white when it was finished. Eww....
Posted by yeltom on September 29, 2002, at 12:54:41
In reply to Re: mild ocd maybe yes » katekite, posted by mike21 on April 16, 2002, at 19:24:07
Interesting theory re: the relationship between OCD and ADD. Does anyone else subscribe to it? WHat's an SSNI?
Posted by mike21 on September 29, 2002, at 17:21:20
In reply to Re: mild ocd maybe yes » mike21, posted by yeltom on September 29, 2002, at 12:54:41
I think I meant to say SNRI - selective norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. Something like wellbutrin. I don't know if that is a real term or if I just made it up.
> Interesting theory re: the relationship between OCD and ADD. Does anyone else subscribe to it? WHat's an SSNI?
Posted by kitt on September 30, 2002, at 22:09:54
In reply to ANYONE'S ANXIETY HELPED BY A STIMULANT?, posted by jaby on April 4, 2002, at 18:55:52
What a curious thing to ask. My daughter has PTSD, but has all the symptoms of ADHD, which can also be a psychosomatic malady. We tried Concerta which I believe is a time released ritalin, which depressed her on top of everything else. I ran across a study on ADD the other day about decreased levels of norephinephrine which I thought was odd because that doesn't correlate with what I understand about PTSD. Oddly enough, my daughter is calmed by stimulants. I can't drink tea at night because it keeps me awake, but my daughter can drink a cup of tea and it knocks her out. I wonder if perhaps she really does have a biochemically based ADHD after all and just needs to be presribed the right meds.
Posted by lawrence s. on October 2, 2002, at 22:11:57
In reply to Re: ANYONE'S ANXIETY HELPED BY A STIMULANT?, posted by kitt on September 30, 2002, at 22:09:54
> What a curious thing to ask. My daughter has PTSD, but has all the symptoms of ADHD, which can also be a psychosomatic malady. We tried Concerta which I believe is a time released ritalin, which depressed her on top of everything else. I ran across a study on ADD the other day about decreased levels of norephinephrine which I thought was odd because that doesn't correlate with what I understand about PTSD. Oddly enough, my daughter is calmed by stimulants. I can't drink tea at night because it keeps me awake, but my daughter can drink a cup of tea and it knocks her out. I wonder if perhaps she really does have a biochemically based ADHD after all and just needs to be presribed the right meds.
I take ritalin in for anxiety and it does deffinately reduce anxiety for me.
Posted by katekite on October 3, 2002, at 11:02:07
In reply to Re: ANYONE'S ANXIETY HELPED BY A STIMULANT?, posted by kitt on September 30, 2002, at 22:09:54
Mine is helped by stimulants. I was told I had generalized anxiety disorder but then after being diagnosed with ADD and taking ritalin I was told it was "internal restlessness", since it went away completely. I still have some social anxiety and my own set of quirks despite ritalin but the moment to moment stuff is gone, with the drug, since I can actually focus and do what I plan to.
Since the lowest dose of Concerta is 18mg equal to 5mg ritalin 3 times a day, it might be she was overmedicated. One of the over-medicated signs is 'crying' according to the packaging, who knows what that means.
I'd recommend trying short acting ritalin and using a half pill (2.5mg). One can also cut pills of Adderall, and also the dexedrine spansules come in a capsule that can be opened and a completely variable amount taken. I would say try all three major stimulants (ritalin, adderall, dexedrine) before deciding for sure that ADD isn't it. She must have had some ADD symptoms to try stimulants in the first place, not only anxiety. Start with less than the recommended dose.
As an adult the dose of ritalin that works best for me is 2.5 mg 3 times a day.
kate
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