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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 34. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Janelle on March 17, 2002, at 14:31:24
Accck ... I've gone from being an achiever, highly organized and very on top of things to feeling like I'm in a haze, removed or detached from life around me, my mind is foggy, my memory is shot, and I've become absent-minded and forgetful.
When I do something as simple as taking my meds(!) and moments later I will panic that I didn't really take them because I literally have no recall of putting them in my mouth, and swallowing them with the water. Also I find myself forgetting to put things away after I've used them (I'm normally super neat and efficient).
I'm growing increasingly frustrated, unhappy and a bit mystified by this. Can anyone else relate to this kind of stuff? And is the meds or the depression or both that is causing it? (I'm on EffexorXR, Klonopin, Lamictal, Zyprexa)
Thanks for any words of wisdom or support.
Posted by IsoM on March 17, 2002, at 15:07:34
In reply to HELP! Is it the MEDS /or the depression?, posted by Janelle on March 17, 2002, at 14:31:24
How long have you been on these meds? I experience similar when I take meds & have to mentally force myself to be aware that I've taken them so I'll remember.
For me, I think when dopamine is low, I react like that. My adrafinil sharpens me & it boosts dopamine (very simplified explanation). Possible that your thyroid function is low & you could get your TSY levels checked by your doctor.
Posted by IsoM on March 17, 2002, at 15:08:07
In reply to HELP! Is it the MEDS /or the depression?, posted by Janelle on March 17, 2002, at 14:31:24
Posted by Janelle on March 17, 2002, at 16:29:57
In reply to Re: HELP! Is it the MEDS /or the depression? » Janelle, posted by IsoM on March 17, 2002, at 15:07:34
I have been on this particular combo of meds for about a year, with minor changes here and there. I notice that when I go through a depressive episode, the stuff I described in the original post here is real bad, but when the depression lifts and even though I'm on the meds, those troublesome symptoms are less severe. So me thinks it's the depression more than the meds.
Funny you should mention that I could have low thyroid because my T3, T4 and TSH levels have always been normal on conventional blood tests, BUT I went to a doc that specializes in thryroid problems and he tested my T3/T4/TSH using a different measurement range and I came out VERY low on one of those (and too high on another - he said this was to compensate for the low one). So, I am also on a natural Thyroid supplement. I was re-tested again recently and now my thryoid levels are all fine!
What med is Adafranil (brand name)? (you don't mean the TCA Anafranil do you?)
Posted by IsoM on March 17, 2002, at 17:04:36
In reply to ISO: regarding the TSH level, more: » IsoM, posted by Janelle on March 17, 2002, at 16:29:57
How'd you like to give me more details about your new testing, please? I'm interested in knowing more as my THS levels seem to be flucuating lately. The amount of soy I eat hasn't changed any (I've eaten soy about 30 years now & don't go overboard on it) so I can't understand what's with my THS.
No, I don't mean Anafranil, a TCA, but adrafinil (Olmifon) related to modafinil (Provigil). It has an over-all brain stimulating effect but from reading various posts here, not all think it's helpful. I have narcolepsy & ADHD (but unless I'm in high-gear, "don't spare the gas, James" mode), I'm sleepy & lethargic. Adrafinil makes a big difference. I respond very well to dopamine boosters.
Posted by fachad on March 17, 2002, at 18:32:13
In reply to HELP! Is it the MEDS /or the depression?, posted by Janelle on March 17, 2002, at 14:31:24
Adrafinil is Not Available in the US - the closest thing to it is Provigil.
If you are considering Provigil, I hope you are rich or have really good insurance, because it's extremely expensive.
Posted by fachad on March 17, 2002, at 18:33:49
In reply to HELP! Is it the MEDS /or the depression?, posted by Janelle on March 17, 2002, at 14:31:24
You wrote, "I'm on EffexorXR, Klonopin, Lamictal, Zyprexa"
What are your doses and why do you take each med?
> Accck ... I've gone from being an achiever, highly organized and very on top of things to feeling like I'm in a haze, removed or detached from life around me, my mind is foggy, my memory is shot, and I've become absent-minded and forgetful.
>
> When I do something as simple as taking my meds(!) and moments later I will panic that I didn't really take them because I literally have no recall of putting them in my mouth, and swallowing them with the water. Also I find myself forgetting to put things away after I've used them (I'm normally super neat and efficient).
>
> I'm growing increasingly frustrated, unhappy and a bit mystified by this. Can anyone else relate to this kind of stuff? And is the meds or the depression or both that is causing it? (I'm on EffexorXR, Klonopin, Lamictal, Zyprexa)
>
> Thanks for any words of wisdom or support.
Posted by Janelle on March 17, 2002, at 22:40:45
In reply to What are Your Doses and What are you treating? » Janelle, posted by fachad on March 17, 2002, at 18:33:49
I take:
EffexorXR 150 mg/day for depression
Lamictal - just started so I'm titrating low and slow (due to the rash problem when you start at too high a dose) and this is for Cycling/BiPolar2
Zyprexa - either 2.5mg or 5 mg/night for anxiety, racing thoughts, obsessiveness
Klonopin - 1 mg/day for anxiety
Now that I've answered your questions, what are your comments regarding my thread here. Thanks!
Posted by Janelle on March 17, 2002, at 22:43:53
In reply to Re: ISO: regarding the TSH level, more: » Janelle, posted by IsoM on March 17, 2002, at 17:04:36
The TSH and other thyroid testing is done through a specialty lab from CA, they use narrow ranges and a different unit of measure from *regular* thryoid panels and I think that this doctor gives the lab the ranges to use in the results (printouts).
Posted by Janelle on March 17, 2002, at 22:45:39
In reply to Re: ISO: regarding the TSH level, more: » Janelle, posted by IsoM on March 17, 2002, at 17:04:36
Posted by IsoM on March 18, 2002, at 1:03:26
In reply to ISO: where R U getting the Adafranil from? (nm) » IsoM, posted by Janelle on March 17, 2002, at 22:45:39
Sorry, but there are strict policies about posting URLs or any other means of telling you where to get these meds from.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#illegalBut I'll explain this much & hope it's okay with Dr. Bob. Doing a search on a good search engine like http://www.google.com for sources to buy on-line will give you a number of sites to order from. simply order from the one that you can get the cheapest meds from in the quickest time.
Posted by Charlotte on March 18, 2002, at 5:29:13
In reply to ISO: where R U getting the Adafranil from? (nm) » IsoM, posted by Janelle on March 17, 2002, at 22:45:39
Janelle if you live in the US, let us know if you decide to order adrafinil or modafinil and receive it successfully.
Customs can seize drugs coming into the country which haven't been approved by the FDA (adrafinil hasn't). And I understand that if you order modafinil which is approved here (but is much, much cheaper out of country), they'll seize that too unless you can show them a written prescription from a US doctor.
Charlotte
Posted by fachad on March 18, 2002, at 8:25:26
In reply to FACHAD: Doses and What is being treated » fachad, posted by Janelle on March 17, 2002, at 22:40:45
Short Answer:
It's probably some of both, but it's mostly the meds.
Practical Suggestion:
Could you take more Klonapin and eliminate Zyprexa or vice versa? The fewer meds in the mix, the less likely there will be problems both short and long term.
Long Answer:
I am not an expert - and even the experts don't really KNOW for sure, but I think it's probably mostly the meds.
I get the same thing - like driving away from the house and forgetting if I put the garage door down because I have *no memory* whatsoever of reaching for the control or pushing the button.
I think psych meds cause these types of problems in several ways. First, they somehow subtly interfere with short-term memory and recall.
They also cause apathy and a real tendency to "let things slide" (SSRIs are especially bad here).
They also reduce or quench the natural internal "alarms" of anxiety or depression that a non-medicated person would feel when they are letting things slide (anxiety) and when things have gone south (depression).
Those feelings that the drugs are reducing (anxiety, panic, depression) are all signals from our nervous systems that something in our life is wrong. We are taking meds because these signals are "too loud" and are causing problems in and of themselves. But it's very easy to overshoot and totally quench the signals.
So lets see, reduced memory, apathy, natural alarms disabled...at that point, you are operating at reduced functionality. A hazy, detached, fog is how you described it.
At some point, and it's different for everyone, the cure becomes worse than the disease it was meant to treat. The decison you have to make is whether or not it's worth it.
That's not a dilemma that has an easy solution, but it's the conclusion I've come to from being on various meds for about a decade. The way I've dealt with it is to try to find meds that casue as few problems as possible, and try for as few meds as possible at the lowest possible doses.
And I always try to weigh the cost vs. the benefit of being on any particular med.
> I take:
>
> EffexorXR 150 mg/day for depression
>
> Lamictal - just started so I'm titrating low and slow (due to the rash problem when you start at too high a dose) and this is for Cycling/BiPolar2
>
> Zyprexa - either 2.5mg or 5 mg/night for anxiety, racing thoughts, obsessiveness
>
> Klonopin - 1 mg/day for anxiety
>
> Now that I've answered your questions, what are your comments regarding my thread here. Thanks!
Posted by jay on March 18, 2002, at 14:05:53
In reply to Re: ISO: where R U getting the Adafranil from? » Janelle, posted by IsoM on March 18, 2002, at 1:03:26
> Sorry, but there are strict policies about posting URLs or any other means of telling you where to get these meds from.
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#illegal
>
> But I'll explain this much & hope it's okay with Dr. Bob. Doing a search on a good search engine like http://www.google.com for sources to buy on-line will give you a number of sites to order from. simply order from the one that you can get the cheapest meds from in the quickest time.If you are, could you possibly chat with me via email, as I will post my email addy if possible.
Thanx!Jay
Posted by IsoM on March 18, 2002, at 14:24:13
In reply to IsoM: R U In Canada...Help!! » IsoM, posted by jay on March 18, 2002, at 14:05:53
Jay, I honestly would like to but this is Dr. Bob's web-site & we must remember to play by his rules. That even covers posting our e-mail addresses for the purpose of finding on-line meds. I didn't realise before that even that wasn't allowed, but it isn't & I have no wish to be blocked. I'm really a stickler for rules, especially if it's not my game.
If you live in Canada, let me tell you this much -
You're allowed to import medications into Canada through the mail for your own personal use. It's not stopped at customs or seized. It's easy to find on-line British companies selling various smart-brain meds & supplements & have them ship the order directly to your mail. Just use http://www.google.com to look for what you want.If, on the other hand, you live in the States & wish to order meds, I have no idea what the laws are. From what I've read, they're much, much tougher.
Posted by Janelle on March 18, 2002, at 14:56:47
In reply to Hazy and Detached from Meds or Depression? » Janelle, posted by fachad on March 18, 2002, at 8:25:26
Posted by JNefyn on March 19, 2002, at 21:52:10
In reply to Hazy and Detached from Meds or Depression? » Janelle, posted by fachad on March 18, 2002, at 8:25:26
I know exactly what you're talking about. I've been on Zoloft and Zyprexa for about a year.
Good news is that I don't feel depressed or anxious.Bad news is that I can barely pull myself out of bed in the morning, and will sleep for 12 hrs on the weekend, and then go back to bed for another couple of hours. I also feel fuzzy and have some problems with short term memory -- altho age may also be a factor ;-) I was beginning to wonder if I should go on a meds "vacation" and try to figure out what's me and what's the meds.
When I complained about this to the dr. last week, she prescribed Provigil. So far, it seems to be helping. Has anyone else had experience with Provigil??
Julie
Posted by IsoM on March 19, 2002, at 22:05:33
In reply to Re: Hazy and Detached from Meds or Depression? » fachad, posted by JNefyn on March 19, 2002, at 21:52:10
I take Olmifon (adrafinil) which is very similar to Provigil (modafinil). Any questions, or what?
Posted by JNefyn on March 19, 2002, at 22:13:12
In reply to Re: Experience with Provigil » JNefyn, posted by IsoM on March 19, 2002, at 22:05:33
> I take Olmifon (adrafinil) which is very similar to Provigil (modafinil). Any questions, or what?
I guess my main question is whether it works? (I know, everyone is different...)Are there are any problems? Also, does the effect last, or does it tend to fade out over time?
Thanks.
Julie
Posted by IsoM on March 19, 2002, at 22:41:36
In reply to Re: Experience with Provigil, posted by JNefyn on March 19, 2002, at 22:13:12
Adrafinil is supposed to be a milder stimulant than modafinil (Provigil) & I'd rather have Provigil but it's more expensive.
Yes, it does work for me, but I have narcolepsy & ADD too. It took a couple of weeks before it started working for me - I read that's how it normally does, but many other people have said it worked immediately for them.
You will probably find as many people think it useless or bothersome, as though that do like it. I think a lot depends on your particular problem, brain chemistry, & perhaps other medications being taken. I have encountered no problems whatsoever on it. It has benefited my mood, alertness, focus, & daytime sleepiness. It also makes me feel gentler & more sociable. I have noticed effects wore off after a couple of months but I think it wasn't the reaction of the drug as much as a body reaction of mine. Please read the following message link to understand what I'm referring to, which is why I'm increasing the dose. I did think my initial dose was small.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020313/msgs/97812.htmlIf you want to know more, I'll explain.
Posted by Zo on March 20, 2002, at 0:17:55
In reply to Re: Hazy and Detached from Meds or Depression? » fachad, posted by JNefyn on March 19, 2002, at 21:52:10
My god, I'm in awe that you ever get up, that combo would put me into a coma. I slept almost frighteningly well on Zyprexa. . .and Zoloft was like being permanently stoned. You wanna look at haze and detachment, look to the Zoloft. . . .
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 20, 2002, at 1:13:34
In reply to Re: Experience with Provigil, posted by JNefyn on March 19, 2002, at 22:13:12
Provigil works great in so called "naive" stimulant patients- those who have never taken Adderall, Ritalin, or Dexedrine.
200 mg is the standard starting dose. To me it feels like extended release caffeine with slight euphoria & much less anxiety. If it "poops out" you can move to 300 or 400 mg which is supposed to be much more effective but causes a greater increase in blood pressure & heartbeat & perhaps anxiety.
For me, I noticed 200 mg Provigil pooped out after 2 months, but I also take Lamictal & Klonopin, both of which could have contributed to the pooping out or may have counteracted its effects (I suspect the Lamictal did it).
If your insurance pays for Provigil (i know Cigna does) you might give it a shot for a few months (refills are allowed), but if they don't it is to expensive (about $5 US per pill) to justify buying it.
The ADD brand name stimulants are more effective but cause more anxiety- similar to the level of anxiety from Caffeine 200 mg. Dexedrine, Dextrostat, Adderall, Ritalin, Focalin range from about 34 cents per pill to $2.50 for Adderall XR, & some of these are available in generics which are even cheaper. But, these are all Schedule II meds & cannot be order through the mail/internet (that would land you in federal prison ala Johnny Cash), & a triplicate DEA prescription from your doctor with no refills allowed is required.
Posted by IsoM on March 20, 2002, at 1:51:56
In reply to Provigil works good if u never taken ADD stims, posted by 3 Beer Effect on March 20, 2002, at 1:13:34
Ah, dear 3 Beer Effect. I do disagree. It's a different affect, yes, & doesn't give one the 'kick in the pants' effect that the other pstims do but people do react differently.
Mind you, my trial on Ritalin was only one week - the doctor at that time figured if I made it through this many years without it, I didn't need it now. So why did he give me a week's worth to try? The ass.
I've also taken Dexedrine long-term. It gives an immediate boost, but I still like my adrafinil (or Provigil, if I could get it cheap). Maybe if I didn't have narcolepsy, it might be different. But with Dexedrine (& the short trial of Ritalin), each time the dose wore off & I'd need another dose for the day, the sleepiness would come over me in a rush. I hated the half-asleep, then awake, then half-asleep, then awake feeling I'd get through the day. I felt like a yo-yo. Now I can stay awake all day knowing that it won't wear off in a couple of hours.
So I'm at least one person who doesn't fit your profile of previous pstim users not liking Provigil.
Posted by JNefyn on March 20, 2002, at 18:26:49
In reply to Re: Hazy and Detached from Meds or Depression? » JNefyn, posted by Zo on March 20, 2002, at 0:17:55
LOL! I have a pretty high tolerance for anything sedative.Thanks, everyone, for your comments. I thought there was something seriously wrong with me.....
> My god, I'm in awe that you ever get up, that combo would put me into a coma. I slept almost frighteningly well on Zyprexa. . .and Zoloft was like being permanently stoned. You wanna look at haze and detachment, look to the Zoloft. . . .
Posted by GB on March 20, 2002, at 21:12:20
In reply to Re: Hazy and Detached from Meds or Depression? » Zo, posted by JNefyn on March 20, 2002, at 18:26:49
I tried provigil. It gave me a strong boost for a week, then a big crash. It was like taking amphetamine/speed.
Is that what provigil is ..... legal speed?
GB
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