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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 1:19:47
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! » Dolphin, posted by Cam W. on January 7, 2002, at 0:03:44
hi Cam. I can no longer keep my mouth shut, but still, I'm going to be as kind as possible., but honest.
Here's the rundown on these "sea vegetables" from the Lifeforce site itself:
"9 FULLY-RIPENED SEA VEGETABLES—
(Fucus Gardneri, Ulva Lactuca, Alaria Valida, Nereocystis Luetkeana, Laminaria, Ulva Linza, Gigartina, Costaria
Costata, Phodymenia Pertusa). Rich in enzymes, our
sea vegetables are a good source of “organic” trace minerals, which help the body naturally detoxify itself. Our sea vegetables are harvested from the pristine ocean waters in an area referred to as the “Regeneration Zone.” This zone is free from herbicides, pesticides and heavy metal contamination, and are in a constant state of nutrient enrichment."Amazing, how this part of the ocean doesn't seem to mix its waters with the polluted waters of the rest of the world's oceans. I never thought that ocean waters were stagnant before, how else could its waters stay separate from the rest of the world? Here’s the rundown on the algae listed:
Fucus gardneri: an alga that grows in the upper intertidal zone often attached to rocks, hence the common name 'rockweed'.
Ulva lactuca: familiarly called sea lettuce.Any kid playing along the shores has seen it. Sometimes eaten as green laver in Oriental diets.
Alaria valida: a variety of winged kelp belonging to the brown algae family. Abundant in low intertidal & shallow subtidal zones.
Nereocystis luetkeana: commonly called bladder or ribbon kelp, the most plentiful kelp species found in underwater kelp forests.
Laminaria: a number of different species of brown kelp also found in low intertidal zones.
Ulva linza: a related species of algae to sea lettuce.
Gigartina: a number of species in the genus, Gigartina, a red kelp commonly found in the Pacific.
Costaria costata: commonly called ribbed or seersucker kelp, another member of the brown kelp family.
Phodymenia pertusa: I find no information on this one, perhaps it’s using an outdated Latin name.
What I find interesting is that most of these kelps & algae are found in low intertidal zones, yet the company claims it harvests these ‘sea vegetables’ at a depth of 200’. Who’s around to prove where they harvest the kelp from? And while kelp is a good food, strange that it alone has all the nutrients necessary for life that land plants don’t have. I had no idea that some ocean waters could be so pristine either. How’d they manage that?
Bottom line is if it works for some people, placebo or what, all they’re losing is their money, not their health.
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>
> What are "sea vegetables"? What you are describing sounds like manna, or more frighteningly, "Soylent Green". If these "vegetables" are what the company claims, don't you think some scientist, or more likely some major food manufacturing conglomerate, would have us eating these "vegetables" three times daily, to improve our nutrition?
>
> Secrets like this cannot be kept, especially by those who have to use Amway-like marketing to ditribute their product. Why not sell retail? If the product is as you have described, the owners of the product, or it's extraction process, would be billionaires within a week, if placed on the open market.
>
> It also seems highly unlikely that "every vitamin, mineral, bioflavinoid,...." would be found in one or three "sea vegetables". Surely, a find like this would have made the cover of Nature, or at least, NEJM. BTW, most toxins and all heavy metals, are heavier than seawater, and would appear in even the soil of the Arctic Ocean. Also, plants such as "sea vegetables" would require photosynthesis. I'm sorry, but this also leaves me in the dark. Although there is some plant life below the ice of the Arctic Ocean, it would not be in the form of vegetables.
>
> All I ask is that you provide the names of these "sea vegetables"; just the genus and species. If the company cannot do that, then they are bordering on fradualent activity. I will stake my reputation on it. - Cam
>
> "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
>
> "There's a sucker born every minute." - P.T. Barnum
>
> "Doh!" - Homer Simpson
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 8:56:27
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » Teva, posted by michelle a. on January 7, 2002, at 0:43:04
>
Michelle & Teva,
I agree with much of what you say, but there have always been people who fell through the cracks of that mindset. People who were just too vulnerable to respond to a slap of common sense. There are biological vulnerabilities that affect our ability to function. Our ancestors had more than a little depression and anxiety. It was probably self medicated with drugs and alchohol. The most vulnerable individuals probably succumbed to illness or committed suicide. But their relatives probably had a slight advantage in survival due to increased perceptiveness and awareness of danger and more controversially perhaps some increased creativity. These relatives of the most severely affected lived to pass the genes on to us.
Just my own humble theory.
Dinah
Posted by Cam W. on January 7, 2002, at 9:29:12
In reply to Sea Vegetables » Cam W., posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 1:19:47
IsoM - Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. I am always leery of pyramid selling schemes. They always set off my BS detector. - Cam.
Posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 13:22:41
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » michelle a., posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 8:56:27
Posted by JANNBEAU on January 7, 2002, at 14:35:02
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » michelle a., posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 8:56:27
> >Hi, I, too, agree that depression has always been around, at least for a very long time! However, Darwinian evolutionary theory implies "survival of the fittest" with respect to the gene pool. Survivors probably did not carry the genetic trait for depression. If they did carry depression genes, then they probably also carried genes for other, more adaptive behaviors that fostered survival. Those genes should have been amplified in the gene pool, while the genes causing depression would have gradually disappeared from the gene pool, especially as the gene pool is constantly being enlarged), leading to disappearance of depression. Or perhaps we just wouldn't find depression such a problem today. Instead, we perceive depression to have become more prevalent. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, since statistics aren't really available since "depression" isn't a reportable disease for most state public health agencies (who collect most of our morbidity and mortality statistics).
But, you cannot eliminate "nurture" from your equation. We do not seem, as a nation, to be nurturing our to become competent adults. Instead, we're leaving them alone without love, supervision, or role models. The loss of structure from our lives may contribute to depression, or, if depression is genetic, to expression of the gene as the clinical state of depression. The last comment suggests that "nature" and "nurture" are inextricable. If so, history has also shown that people are much a product of their environment and that a positive environment can compensate for, or significantly decrease some of the most devastating of the effects of "nature." This is illustrated by the progress of babies born addicted to crack cocaine who, when removed from the environment that produced them and placed into nurturing homes, are very little different from "normal" people. Much other historical data supports this concept, going all the way back to Harry Harlow's monkeys (and well before that time, too--remember marasmus--the wasting disease of infants left without nurturing care in orphanages?)..illustrating the power of the environment to determine fate.
Then, again, perhaps we ARE just spoiled rotten, we don't have to work hard, we have everything we need in life, we don't have to worry about where we'll get our next pair of Guess? jeans, much less our next meal, and we have much more time to titillate ourselves with our emotional problems. We like to hear ourselves talk and moan. We have powerful imaginations which, if not stopped, can carry us into the most horrible day-time nightmares just by pushing our THOUGHTS into the direction of horrible outcomes!
Then, again, and again, perhaps depression and some other mental illnesses are just a fabrication of the drug companies that make fortunes off those of us (I certainly belong to this group) who have "bought" into the medical model of disease and think that there is a pill to cure every ailment--those of us who take Effexor may or may not agree with the healing effects of this drug--I won't go there, now.
Who knows? I think I just like to hear myself rattle, too.
Cheers,
Jannbeau. . .People who were just too vulnerable to respond to a slap of common sense. There are biological vulnerabilities that affect our ability to function. Our ancestors had more than a little depression and anxiety. The most vulnerable individuals probably succumbed to illness or committed suicide. But their relatives probably had a slight advantage in survival due to increased perceptiveness and awareness of danger and more controversially perhaps some increased creativity. These relatives of the most severely affected lived to pass the genes on to us.
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 19:01:32
In reply to Agree with your theory -history agrees too (nm) » Dinah, posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 13:22:41
I should have said my opinion. I'm sure I read it somewhere and just found it a sensible notion. I don't want to take credit for it. :-)
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 19:09:25
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » Dinah, posted by JANNBEAU on January 7, 2002, at 14:35:02
Hi Jannbeau,
I'd be happy to continue this discussion of the history and evolution of depression, but I think we'd better move it to Psycho-Social-Babble before Dr. Bob redirects it. I'll post a reply there if you'd like to continue the discussion.
Dinah
Posted by IsoM on January 8, 2002, at 1:20:18
In reply to Oops, actually not my theory. » IsoM, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 19:01:32
That's okay, I didn't quite mean literally your "theory". I probably was in a Monty Python frame of mind. But still, it's what I believe is true of depression's predominance nowadays too.
The Monty Python sketch was where John Cleese dressed as a woman professor was giving 'her' theory on dinosaurs. Everytime I say the word theory that sketch pops into my head.
> I should have said my opinion. I'm sure I read it somewhere and just found it a sensible notion. I don't want to take credit for it. :-)
Posted by JANNBEAU on January 8, 2002, at 10:58:41
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » JANNBEAU, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 19:09:25
> Hi Jannbeau,
> I'd be happy to continue this discussion of the history and evolution of depression, but I think we'd better move it to Psycho-Social-Babble before Dr. Bob redirects it. I'll post a reply there if you'd like to continue the discussion.
> DinahHi, Dinah. That sounds great. I'll see you at Psycho-Social-Babble if I can figure out how to find you. I am new at this,so I haven't explored all the forums, but I did realize that we were straying from the Effexor thread. Thanks for redirect. BTW, I am feeling so much better since I started Effexor (and another to reduce the sedative effects that seemed to be crippling me) that I actually enjoy the philosophical discussions.
Cheers, JannBeau
Posted by zekingprawn on January 8, 2002, at 11:25:19
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!!, posted by Dolphin on January 3, 2002, at 22:25:14
Dolphin, you are right, if it works for you, then THAT IS GREAT FOR YOU. What made me realize this was reading the following that you wrote:
"God did not make Effexor, Paxil, Prozac, etc. However, he did create what our body needs to survive and live."
Let's not bring God into this. God may not have made EFfexor, etc... but he didn't make Penecillin, The Polio Vaccine, The small POx Vaccine, either... but he made the diseases himself. It gets so tiring hearing people praise God for everything good, but for anything bad he had nothing to do with it. He made people, and people are depressed.
It is one thing to use this post to say that something works for you, and another to try to discourage people from using something because 'God didn't make it'.
I had tremendous success with effexor (for anyone who cares, I put up a post called 'effexor success story') so it does work for some people in treating this horrible horrible disease that GOD inflicts.
Posted by JANNBEAU on January 8, 2002, at 12:14:40
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!!, posted by zekingprawn on January 8, 2002, at 11:25:19
> Dolphin, you are right, if it works for you, then THAT IS GREAT FOR YOU. What made me realize this was reading the following that you wrote:
>
> "God did not make Effexor, Paxil, Prozac, etc. However, he did create what our body needs to survive and live."
>
> Let's not bring God into this. God may not have made EFfexor, etc... but he didn't make Penecillin, The Polio Vaccine, The small POx Vaccine, either... but he made the diseases himself. It gets so tiring hearing people praise God for everything good, but for anything bad he had nothing to do with it. He made people, and people are depressed.
>
> It is one thing to use this post to say that something works for you, and another to try to discourage people from using something because 'God didn't make it'.
>
> I had tremendous success with effexor (for anyone who cares, I put up a post called 'effexor success story') so it does work for some people in treating this horrible horrible disease that GOD inflicts.Hi, Zekingprawn: Just want to point out that your response to Dolphin is internally inconsistent. If you are going to leave God out of this, then you have to leave Him out of all of it. You cannot blame him for the depression, either!
Cheers, JannBeau
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 8, 2002, at 19:30:26
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » Dinah, posted by JANNBEAU on January 8, 2002, at 10:58:41
> Hi, Dinah. That sounds great. I'll see you at Psycho-Social-Babble if I can figure out how to find you. I am new at this,so I haven't explored all the forums, but I did realize that we were straying from the Effexor thread. Thanks for redirect.
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020102/msgs/16409.html
Thanks for thinking of redirecting this piece,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 8, 2002, at 19:35:54
In reply to Re: Please don't use capital letters..., posted by angel1 on January 6, 2002, at 20:58:55
> > they denote shouting.
> WHATEVER!!!!!!!!!!!That's not a supportive response, so I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 8, 2002, at 19:42:14
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!!, posted by zekingprawn on January 8, 2002, at 11:25:19
> Let's not bring God into this...
Bringing God into this is OK, but should be done at Psycho-Social-Babble rather than here. Thanks,
Bob
PS: And any discussion about what should be posted where should take place at Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 8, 2002, at 19:56:07
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! » Dolphin, posted by Cam W. on January 7, 2002, at 0:03:44
> Please back up your statements with scientific evidence. "Opinions" don't hold much water...
>
> What are "sea vegetables"? What you are describing sounds like manna, or more frighteningly, "Soylent Green"...I understand that you're skeptical and want more information, but please don't be sarcastic or put pressure on others, thanks.
Bob
Posted by JANNBEAU on January 9, 2002, at 10:43:49
In reply to Redirect: Depression and history, posted by Dr. Bob on January 8, 2002, at 19:30:26
> Here's a link:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020102/msgs/16409.html
>
> Thanks for thinking of redirecting this piece,
>
> BobThanks for the link, Dr. Bob.
Cheers,
JannBeau
Posted by Cindylou on January 9, 2002, at 12:46:10
In reply to Re: please be civil « [exasperated sigh!] (nm), posted by Cam W. on January 8, 2002, at 20:50:43
Posted by nean on January 10, 2002, at 10:16:23
In reply to Re: Effexor XR cold turkey, posted by nean on January 4, 2002, at 14:45:25
Just wanted to report in. Mainly for new people like me who wonder on to this site. I've been off for 8 days after taking 150mg for almost a year. I don't feel 100%, but the worse of it seems to be over for me. I can at least function now. Thanks again for being out here as a source of information.
Posted by JANNBEAU on January 10, 2002, at 13:31:56
In reply to Re: Effexor XR cold turkey, posted by nean on January 10, 2002, at 10:16:23
> Just wanted to report in. Mainly for new people like me who wonder on to this site. I've been off for 8 days after taking 150mg for almost a year. I don't feel 100%, but the worse of it seems to be over for me. I can at least function now. Thanks again for being out here as a source of information.
Nean, that's wonderful news. Gives me hope that I can do it, too. I told my doctor about problems others have had and she said she had never had a patient who had significant difficulty witdrawing from Effexor--didn't know what to believe, but was already taking the medication, so your experience is reassuring. Thanks!
JannBeau
Posted by melmel on January 10, 2002, at 14:06:11
In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14
i've been on effexor xr for approx 2 months now, 225 mg in the morning. i've noticed lately that when i first get up, before i take the medicine, if i wave my hand in front of my face (or another object moves by), it has a trailer behind it. (by trailer i mean like a tail following behind, kind of hallucinogenic) very weird. anyone else experience this?
Posted by IsoM on January 10, 2002, at 15:05:47
In reply to new side effect, posted by melmel on January 10, 2002, at 14:06:11
I'm not going to be of much help to you but I always have had it, meds or not. It seems to part of the package that's described in the subsyndromal epilepsy questionnaire on another page on Dr. Bob's site. It's never bothered me though.
> i've been on effexor xr for approx 2 months now, 225 mg in the morning. i've noticed lately that when i first get up, before i take the medicine, if i wave my hand in front of my face (or another object moves by), it has a trailer behind it. (by trailer i mean like a tail following behind, kind of hallucinogenic) very weird. anyone else experience this?
Posted by ddurkee on January 10, 2002, at 15:15:02
In reply to What to do? , posted by Kara on January 18, 2001, at 9:50:42
I'm curious that you were diagnosed with anemia. I've been on Effexor for clinical depression for about 6 weeks. A couple weeks before I started the drug, I donated blood, and had no problems doing so. However, today, my hematocrit reading (iron) was too low. I'm waiting to hear from my doctor if it's an interaction from the drug (don't you just love doctors?) but I'm curious if the low iron count is a result of the drug, seeing as I've never had that problem when giving blood before.
Posted by Teva on January 10, 2002, at 20:34:01
In reply to new side effect, posted by melmel on January 10, 2002, at 14:06:11
> i've been on effexor xr for approx 2 months now, 225 mg in the morning. i've noticed lately that when i first get up, before i take the medicine, if i wave my hand in front of my face (or another object moves by), it has a trailer behind it. (by trailer i mean like a tail following behind, kind of hallucinogenic) very weird. anyone else experience this?
Absolutely! I found that it was especially bad if I missed a day. I hope it clears up for you.
Teva
Posted by sweet_slider on January 11, 2002, at 2:10:08
In reply to Re: What to do? , posted by ddurkee on January 10, 2002, at 15:15:02
I noticed the same thing when I went to give blood, it came up on the first machine(or initial test that they do)as too low but then they did a second test and my count was low but acceptable in their terms to give blood.
Dr. Bob do you have any idea if that is a side effect or just coincidence? I have been on Effexor XR for 5 months now and I have never had a problem with low iron before.
Posted by sid on January 11, 2002, at 8:15:47
In reply to Re: What to do? }}ddurkee Dr. Bob, posted by sweet_slider on January 11, 2002, at 2:10:08
Perhaps it has to do with Effexor, but it could just be that you give blood too often. I used to give blood every... (minimum allowed interval between blood giving at the Red Cross - can't remember; 2 or 3 months?), and at some point I had the same problem. I was told to wait a while because I had given too often and my blood needed more time to rebuild correctly.
> I noticed the same thing when I went to give blood, it came up on the first machine(or initial test that they do)as too low but then they did a second test and my count was low but acceptable in their terms to give blood.
> Dr. Bob do you have any idea if that is a side effect or just coincidence? I have been on Effexor XR for 5 months now and I have never had a problem with low iron before.
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