![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 38 to 62 of 83. Go back in thread:
Posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 17:30:27
In reply to Re: About the Supplement, posted by stjames on December 19, 2001, at 17:17:51
From the archives:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010530/msgs/65133.html
I have spent a little time evaluating what appeared to me to be a rather hight cost for E.M.POWER+
as quoted by the Synergy Group of Canada for their supplement: basically US $150.00/month.
The results I what I find: purchasing the equivalent would probably cost your abour $40.00/monthThe E.M.POWER+ Ingredient List contains (1) Vitamins (2) Minerals (3) "Proprietary Blend"
(1) The Vitamin daily dosage (32 pills), when compared to a widely available commercial product (Theragran-M, by Bristol-Myers) works out to almost exactly 4 times the amount in each of the "Theragran" tablets.
(2) The Mineral daily dosages are mostly substantially higher than the "Theragran" product (including Theragran's "Vitamin/Mineral" supplement)
(3) The non-mineral "proprietary blend" (Ginko, Grape Seed, etc.) dosages are not stated on their web site, but I have been told by a research pharmacologist who has seen the data that the dosage level is so low as to be "negligible". I would state this Dr.'s name, but I have not asked his permission to quote this.Cost evaluation:
(1) The equivalent vitamins purchased as "Theragran" would cost approximately $6.00 to $8.00/month.
This is computed: (30 days * 4 capsules * $.06/capsule)(2) The minerals, as priced from Web sources, would cost approx $20.00 month
This is based on sample prices for "Mega Multi Mineral formula" from Solaray.
This is computed: (30 days * 8 capsules * $.08/capsule)
Please note that the following minerals in both "Truehope" and "Solaray's" products include the AMINO ACID CHELATED form of the mineral: Calcium, Iron, Manganese, Chromium, Molybdenum, Boron, Vanadiuim, and Nickel.
As chelated forms of the minerals, they appear to be more expensive than those minerals found in "standard" vitamin/mineral supplements.(3) As the information I have been given about the Ginko, etc. is that the dosage levels are very low, I can only state that the cost must also be pretty low....
So, the "equivalent" cost"
..Theragran vitamins (or equiv).........$ 8.00
..Minerals (chelelated)......................$20.00
..Ginko, extra Vit B12/C etc.(estimate!)$12.00
Estimated Probable total............ $40.00/monthPills per day
....The Truehope formula requires 32 capsules/day
....An "equivalent" works out to about 20 or so pills/day
........(4 regular vitamin pills)
........(8 mineral pills)
........(4 "extra" vitamin pills: C,B12, etc.)
........("x" "herbal supplement pills)When I confronted a "Truehope" representative about the comparatively hight cost of their product, they advised me that their's had a very high "bio-availabilty" rating. However, no one has been able to give me any evidence of either direct or comparative measurement of that!
NOTE: I AM NOT RECOMMENDING TAKING THIS MUCH "STUFF". PARTICULARYLY SOME MINERAL DOSES IN HIGH LEVELS HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO CAUSE PROBLEMS, AS WELL AS VITAMIN A IN DOSES THIS HIGH
FURTHERMORE, IF ONE'S LIVER OR KIDNEY FUNCTION IS IMPARIED, HIGH DOSES MAY (I UNDERSTAND) CAUSE PROBLEMS.NOR AM I RECOMMENDING ANY BRAND OF VITAMIN OR MINERAL SUPPLIER! THOSE NAMES PROVIDED ARE FOR REFERENCE ONLY, SHOULD YOU CARE TO VALIDATE MY INFORMATION.
Posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 17:33:18
In reply to About the Supplement » Annie Z., posted by IsoM on December 19, 2001, at 13:11:13
Finally…someone with a calmer, more reasonable approach to the subject. I appreciate this.
Actually, I agree with a lot with what you said.I think you make a good point about the Gingo Biloba. Gingo Biloba must me stopped some days before elective surgery, due to the blood issue. (True Hope does say, also, to stop this drug some time before elective surgery.)
If I remember correctly, TH’s dosage of GB (per 8 or 16 tablets) is much lower than by those who supplement with GB alone. Sorry, I can’t remember the figures. If anyone is interested, please contact TH.
>. . . it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination.
Didn’t realize that this passage was your writing, I thought it was stjames.’ I see now that it is your’s. I respond to this paragraph in a post to stjames. Had I read your above statements first, I would have been a lot gentler than I am to stjames.
Posted by IsoM on December 19, 2001, at 18:07:28
In reply to Re: About the Supplement » IsoM, posted by Annie Z. on December 19, 2001, at 17:33:18
Annie, a lot of people have no idea of what kind of nutrients we need or how much, or the difference between minimum daily requirements, recommended daily requirements, & special requirements due to illness, heredity, or stresses, both physical or mental. But seeing how eager people are to do it right, it's not that difficult to learn & educate themselves correctly.
I buy my supplements separately, halibut liver oil capsules, a calcium/magnesium/B6 mixture (because of my special needs), vitamin E capsules, time-released vitamin C, & more, then mix mine. It does mean I have more pills to swallow than I want to but cheaper & I'd say, more effective. I also don't buy them at a health food store. I've found most times, health food stroes are expensive as compared to large chain grocery & pharmacy stores.
Some vitamins that are synthesized in a lab are different than the natural vitamins. Vitamin E is one. Just like people have been reading that there's a new one-sided form of Celexa coming out & have learned about different isomers of a chemical, so it is with E. The left-handed man-made version is not nearly as effective & has side-effects. The natural right-handed vitamin E is therefor the one I buy. But many other vitamins whether made in a lab or made by a plant are the same form. And if it's identical, I'm not going to pay more to have it extracted from a plant than the much cheaper, but just as effective version that's been synthesized in a lab instead.
One reason I'm leery about gingo biloba is it's blood-thinning properties. Yes, it should be stopped before elective surgery but many people don't even think about it when needing a tooth pulled. And unless, a person has medically "thick" blood, we never know when we could have a serious accident & suffer major blood loss from such a herb.
I'm as equally skeptical about any claims I read from drug companies, new research, news bulletins, & health food claims. I like to investigate myself, reading all the pros & cons, & by holding it up to known tried & true science.
Remember the big news a few years ago how shark cartilage was such a cure-all for cancers? It became so overblown so fast. All the scientists had reported is that there seemed to be a protective agent in their cartilage that stopped cancer. Soon everyone wanted it & sharks were killed by the hundreds of thousands just for their cartilage, upsetting the balance in sea life. The problem was this compound is too large & complex a molecule to be taken orally. And the flurry over sharks not developing cancer was found to be false anyway. I prefer common sense & caution in all things.
**************************************************************************************************
> Finally…someone with a calmer, more reasonable approach to the subject. I appreciate this.
> Actually, I agree with a lot with what you said.
>
> I think you make a good point about the Gingo Biloba. Gingo Biloba must me stopped some days before elective surgery, due to the blood issue. (True Hope does say, also, to stop this drug some time before elective surgery.)
>
> If I remember correctly, TH’s dosage of GB (per 8 or 16 tablets) is much lower than by those who supplement with GB alone. Sorry, I can’t remember the figures. If anyone is interested, please contact TH.
>
> >. . . it's just that their supplement is VERY expensive & a person could pay FAR, FAR less by just buying their own combination.
>
> Didn’t realize that this passage was your writing, I thought it was stjames.’ I see now that it is your’s. I respond to this paragraph in a post to stjames. Had I read your above statements first, I would have been a lot gentler than I am to stjames.
Posted by Augusta on December 21, 2001, at 8:48:59
In reply to psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by Elizabeth on December 15, 2001, at 12:04:05
Elizabeth,
It just occurred to me -- could you ask Dr. Bob? Who would better know the movers and shakers in the field! And since he is in Chicago . . . .
Yes, I can anticipate the problems with this suggestion but . . . worth a try? (maybe?)
Posted by Guinnee Pig on December 21, 2001, at 10:33:47
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use » Cam W., posted by jay on December 16, 2001, at 17:54:36
Well, I just visited the site thanks to your bad publicity that will surely get more people to the site rather than less just by mentioning it...Anyway I agree something stinks around there of a potential future lawsuit.
Kristin
Posted by Cam W. on December 21, 2001, at 18:00:22
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use, posted by Guinnee Pig on December 21, 2001, at 10:33:47
Kristin - Actually, it is the Truehope people (or someone related to them) that log in here as posters, touting this wonderful new product for mental disorders. This last assault was, I believe, at least the 3rd time I have seen them in here. I have been told that they do this on other sites, as well. As well as personally not liking their product, I do not like their methods of advertising. But, what can one do ..... hmmmm ..... what can one do.
- Cam
Posted by Guinnee Pig on December 22, 2001, at 11:18:57
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use » Guinnee Pig, posted by Cam W. on December 21, 2001, at 18:00:22
Right on Cam...Thanks for giving us all the heads up. I agree with you completely.
Kristin
Posted by shellir on December 22, 2001, at 11:29:07
In reply to psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by Elizabeth on December 15, 2001, at 12:04:05
> I'm interested in getting a consultation with a psychopharmacologist who's well-known, respected, etc., who might have ideas that could help me (I've tried most conventional AD and augmentations with limited success). I'd prefer a person with a research background (since researchers are usually most likely to know about nontraditional techniques), but that's not an absolute must.
>Hi Elizabeth. I'm going to ask you some questions later about methadone, but I wanted to tell you the situation in washington, d.c., since I have spent my entire adult life here.
I don't believe there is anyone worth seeing once in washington. It is very very conservative here and I have been searching. I had been with Dr. Suzanne Griffin, the best known psychopharmachologist (actually chevy chase, md) for eight years and when the nardil stopped working, there was nothing that she suggested that I hadn't already known from this board. So I truely feel that a consultation would be a waste of time and money. (I like her very much as a person; she is informed , e.g., goes to all the APA meetings, but anti anti opiates.)
I have a name in d.c. that I am going to see (Dr. Richard Hedeya) but he can't see me for three weeks unless he gets a cancellation. He is a psychiatrist (wholistic) who does many many tests, including thyroid, hormone, etc.). He teaches at Georgetown University, but he is not affiliated with the hospital. Even my conventional last pdoc has a lot of respect for him.
Elizabeth, unfortunately, I don't think he is the kind of pscychiatrist that you see once for a consultation.
I once spent an hour on the phone with Richard Brown, who Mair mentioned that she also spoke with. I liked him very much, and at time he wasn't accepting any patients. What he did with me is go through a list of things to augment nardil with, starting with lamictal. As it turned out, I *did* have the most luck with nardil and lamictal, gained 15lbs of water weight and went off. Second time on, not as successful and I hated hated hated the extra 15lbs--my body felt very uncomfortable.
Is Boston out of the question? I actually had been on the way to Johns Hopkins when I got sidetracked and commmited in d.c., but my guess is that they are also conservative. Have you heard of anyone out of Hopkins?
Right now I am taking very low methadone to survive until I can get back home to d.c. It is,of course, the worst possible time to fall apart.
Sorry, no answers, hope someone comes up with something.
Shelli
Posted by Annie Z. on December 22, 2001, at 14:03:48
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use » Guinnee Pig, posted by Cam W. on December 21, 2001, at 18:00:22
I am not associated with True Hope at all. Again, you make statements with nothing to back them up. Please stop your slander.
> Kristin - Actually, it is the Truehope people (or someone related to them) that log in here as posters, touting this wonderful new product for mental disorders. This last assault was, I believe, at least the 3rd time I have seen them in here. I have been told that they do this on other sites, as well. As well as personally not liking their product, I do not like their methods of advertising. But, what can one do ..... hmmmm ..... what can one do.
>
> - Cam
Posted by shellir on December 22, 2001, at 16:39:29
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by Bill L on December 17, 2001, at 9:46:09
But if you really want to go out of state, and you want to go the orthomolecular route, you could call Dr. Robert Hedaya who is a clinician and a psychiatry professor at Georgetown University. . He has a website. You can start with http://www.wholepsych.com/HedayaBio.html and then go to his home page from there. I read his book a few years a go and he specializes in hard to treat cases. BUT, if you get the full battery of tests on your blood, saliva, hair, etc. it costs a few thousand dollars for the tests including the consultations.
>
> According to his book, he usually does NOT replace traditional prescription antidepressants. His treatment only helps to augment your treatment.This is so incredible that I am just reading this. I am staying with my parents in philadelphia but live in washington, d.c. After a major fall after getting off opiates I called my friend who is a clinical psychologist in d.c. and she absolutely unequivically endorced Hedaya. I talked to him last night, and they are trying to get me in before his next openning in three weeks.
So just having stumbled on your post, I feel very encouraged. My friend is very intelligent and very strong in heart, so her recommendation was major and it's nice to see you have also heard of him. And yes, estimated cost is $3000-$7,000 for all the tests plus his time. Are you from D.C. or how did you hear of him?
Shelli
Posted by Guinnee Pig on December 23, 2001, at 0:05:50
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use, posted by Annie Z. on December 22, 2001, at 14:03:48
I'm beginning to fill with doubt that anyone is honest in here. Please -- to those who are full of it, please don't ruin it for those of us that seek at least a little truth on this site. Find another place to play.
Posted by jay on December 23, 2001, at 1:51:46
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use, posted by Annie Z. on December 22, 2001, at 14:03:48
Annie:
The bottom line is, "True Hope" promote the idea of dumping medication use in favour of this vitamin/mineral/herbal combination. They talk explicitly on their website about the process. A landmark legal precedent was set when Thomas Szaz told one of his patients to stop his medications, and the guy ended up hanging himself with battery cables. Szaz was found guilty of a number of charges, including incompetence, failure to provide necessary medical treatment, and numerous other charges.
If you are truly interested in the value of dietary supplements, I would encourage you *not* to be spreading the word of "True Hope" (who really offer nothing unique. you can get this stuff in any health food store.), and post about the general benefits, using scientific studies, on any of the ingredients in the supplements.
As you have read, many on here are quite open-minded to using supplements in their diets. Sometimes, they do provide help as a compliment to the medications we are taking.
Jay
> I am not associated with True Hope at all. Again, you make statements with nothing to back them up. Please stop your slander.
>
> > Kristin - Actually, it is the Truehope people (or someone related to them) that log in here as posters, touting this wonderful new product for mental disorders. This last assault was, I believe, at least the 3rd time I have seen them in here. I have been told that they do this on other sites, as well. As well as personally not liking their product, I do not like their methods of advertising. But, what can one do ..... hmmmm ..... what can one do.
> >
> > - Cam
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 25, 2001, at 9:42:18
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use, posted by Annie Z. on December 22, 2001, at 14:03:48
> > Actually, it is the Truehope people (or someone related to them) that log in here as posters, touting this wonderful new product for mental disorders.
> I am not associated with True Hope at all. Again, you make statements with nothing to back them up. Please stop your slander.
It's fine to have different points of view, but please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks, and happy holidays,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding civility should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by Mitchell on December 28, 2001, at 0:13:50
In reply to Re: Hmmmm....herbal/vitamin chemical use » Annie Z., posted by jay on December 23, 2001, at 1:51:46
> > > A landmark legal precedent was set when Thomas Szaz told one of his patients to stop his medications, and the guy ended up hanging himself with battery cables. Szaz was found guilty of a number of charges, including incompetence, failure to provide necessary medical treatment, and numerous other charges.
Can you please tell me more about the case in which you say Thomas S. Szasz, M.D. was found guilty? I would like to review the case to which you refer. Can you tell me when and in what state this case was tried? If you cannot cite the case, can you direct me to the source where you found information that suggested Dr. Szasz had been found guilty of "incompetence"?
I suppose if there is much discussion of this, it should be redirected to Pscyhosocial, but I wanted to pose the question here, since your reference to legal action against Szasz is posted here.
It would surprise me if, had there been civil or criminal actions against this prominent and controversial professor, I could find no reference to the case on the Internet.
Posted by jay on December 28, 2001, at 13:50:14
In reply to Dr. Thomas Szasz found guilty? » jay, posted by Mitchell on December 28, 2001, at 0:13:50
> > > > A landmark legal precedent was set when Thomas Szaz told one of his patients to stop his medications, and the guy ended up hanging himself with battery cables. Szaz was found guilty of a number of charges, including incompetence, failure to provide necessary medical treatment, and numerous other charges.
>
> Can you please tell me more about the case in which you say Thomas S. Szasz, M.D. was found guilty? I would like to review the case to which you refer. Can you tell me when and in what state this case was tried? If you cannot cite the case, can you direct me to the source where you found information that suggested Dr. Szasz had been found guilty of "incompetence"?
>
> I suppose if there is much discussion of this, it should be redirected to Pscyhosocial, but I wanted to pose the question here, since your reference to legal action against Szasz is posted here.
>
> It would surprise me if, had there been civil or criminal actions against this prominent and controversial professor, I could find no reference to the case on the Internet.
Hi:It is documented in Kay Redfield Jamison's book "Night Falls Fast". 1994, State of New York Vs. Thomas Szaz. The court ruled Szaz had to pay $650,000 to the widow of one of his patients he told to stop taking his lithium, who then commited suicide with battery cables a few months later. Szaz also "failed to render psychiatric medical care and treatment in conformity with customary and accepted sound standards of medical care."...and numerous other similar charges. It was also the American Psychiatric Association's insurance that paid his charge, and as much as he hated the organization, he belonged to it.
The case trial number, and all, are in
Redfield's book. Why would you even think of questioning that this guy could be found guilty of negligence is way beyond me.Jay
Posted by Elizabeth on December 28, 2001, at 14:51:35
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by OldSchool on December 19, 2001, at 10:04:55
Hi, "OldSchool." I believe I recognize you from your writing style and some things you've said. Nice to chat with you again.
I used to have a really good pdoc in W-S, but she's not taking new patients right now. Dr. Mattox seems like he might be a good choice. I wonder if he would be willing to try stuff like amantadine, pramipexole, vigabatrin, amisulpride, etc. that I think might have potential.
I tried getting in touch with Duke and I agree with you about them -- although there may be some research types there who are willing to try anything vaguely exotic, their outpatient clinic is definitely not the place to go if you haven't had adequate success from conventional treatments. My problem is that although regular ADs like Parnate and desipramine improve my mood, the anergia and anhedonia aren't as easy to get rid of.
My doctor in NJ recommended some people at Chapel Hill who might be willing to see me for a consultation. I'm hoping that if I can't find a really good psychiatrist here to see regularly, I can at least see someone good once for a consultation and that person can make some recommendations that my regular pdoc will be willing to listen to.
Unfortunately, a lot of pdocs who are very arrogant seem to be well respected around here. The outpatient clinic at Baptist is much like what you describe experiencing at Duke.
BTW: I haven't been diagnosed with epilepsy because none of the tests confirm that the episodes I've been having (which are very infrequent so I haven't been able to have an EEG while I was having one) are seizures. I think the neurology department at Baptist is supposed to be pretty good (certainly better than the psych department!) and hopefully I will be able to get some help there. Trileptal is a pretty good, side effect free anticonvulsant; the only problem I have with it is that it's so expensive.
-elizabeth
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 28, 2001, at 16:10:31
In reply to Re: Dr. Thomas Szasz found guilty? » Mitchell, posted by jay on December 28, 2001, at 13:50:14
> > I suppose if there is much discussion of this, it should be redirected to Pscyhosocial...
Yes, please, thanks.
Bob
Posted by christophrejmc on December 28, 2001, at 17:24:06
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC » OldSchool, posted by Elizabeth on December 28, 2001, at 14:51:35
>I wonder if he would be willing to try stuff like amantadine, pramipexole, vigabatrin, amisulpride, etc. that I think might have potential.
Have you heard of docs in the U.S. writing scripts for amisulpride to be filled elsewhere? I'm quite interested in trying amisulpride, but ordering it from overseas seems really expensive and I'd rather stay within the law (however ridiculous it is). Do you know if it's generally cheaper to order it with a prescription?
Thanks,
Chris
Posted by OldSchool on December 28, 2001, at 19:36:27
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC » OldSchool, posted by Elizabeth on December 28, 2001, at 14:51:35
> Hi, "OldSchool." I believe I recognize you from your writing style and some things you've said. Nice to chat with you again.
Hehehe
>
> I used to have a really good pdoc in W-S, but she's not taking new patients right now. Dr. Mattox seems like he might be a good choice. I wonder if he would be willing to try stuff like amantadine, pramipexole, vigabatrin, amisulpride, etc. that I think might have potential.I think Mattox is probably the best psychiatrist in your area. He'd probably try the kind of stuff you are talking about. I KNOW he uses MAOIs. I did hear he was kinda dictatorial though...strong personality. But likes to get creative and aggressive with the meds...I doubt Parnate would scare him at all.
>
> I tried getting in touch with Duke and I agree with you about them -- although there may be some research types there who are willing to try anything vaguely exotic, their outpatient clinic is definitely not the place to go if you haven't had adequate success from conventional treatments.Wasnt that a joke? I can already guess what happened to you. You called Duke Psychiatry expecting to experience the vaunted, elite "Duke Psychiatry" services but just got TRIAGED. What a joke. Duke clinical psychiatry is no good. They make you see a "mood disorders counselor" for an hour to do initial eval before they even let you talk to a psychiatrist. What a f**cking joke.
My problem is that although regular ADs like Parnate and desipramine improve my mood, the anergia and anhedonia aren't as easy to get rid of.
Duke psychiatry is ridiculously, outrageously overhyped. Duke does have a good ECT unit though. Thats the best thing about Duke Psychiatry...the rest of it, um well you can have it. How Duke psychiatry always makes it into those top ten ratings for psychiatry departments in US News and World Report I have no idea, because their clinical psychiatry department is no good.
Gaddhi might be worth a shot, if you can get in with him. Good luck on that though.
Susan Van Meter in particular is stone cold and I DO NOT recommend her. She is head of Duke mood disorders and also in charge of inpatient. She has the personality of a robot. AVOID.
>
> My doctor in NJ recommended some people at Chapel Hill who might be willing to see me for a consultation. I'm hoping that if I can't find a really good psychiatrist here to see regularly, I can at least see someone good once for a consultation and that person can make some recommendations that my regular pdoc will be willing to listen to.I like UNC much better than Duke. Its more "user friendly" than Duke is. The UNC idea might be a good one. There is a small neuropsychiatry group in Chapel Hill that does a lot of clinical trials for psych drugs. Im sure you could get those guys to let you try the stuff you wanna try. Its called "Carolina Neuropsychiatry" or something like that and they claim to like to work with any kind of weird or unusual neuropsychiatric condition. They have a website.
>
> Unfortunately, a lot of pdocs who are very arrogant seem to be well respected around here. The outpatient clinic at Baptist is much like what you describe experiencing at Duke.Baptist psychiatry is no good. I will NOT use Baptist psychiatry, nor will I use Duke psychiatry. Id rather use the local "Joe blow" psychiatrist in private practice than these arrogant overrated psychiatrists at Duke or Baptist.
Another thing, if you ever consider ECT, do not have it done at Baptist...their ECT unit is no good.
>
> BTW: I haven't been diagnosed with epilepsy because none of the tests confirm that the episodes I've been having (which are very infrequent so I haven't been able to have an EEG while I was having one) are seizures. I think the neurology department at Baptist is supposed to be pretty good (certainly better than the psych department!) and hopefully I will be able to get some help there. Trileptal is a pretty good, side effect free anticonvulsant; the only problem I have with it is that it's so expensive.Yes, actually Baptist hospital is a very good hospital overall. Except for the psychiatry hehehe. My Grandmother had major surgery for a broken neck a year and a half ago at Baptist neurosurgery and they did a fine job. Baptist Neurology is fine Im 100% sure. Also, Baptist orthopedic surgery is OUTSTANDING...the best in the state actually. Baptist has the best Sports Medicine unit...David Martin scoped my knee years ago. Really good sports medicine at Baptist.
Like I said before, Mattox is aggressive and Ive heard good stuff about him. I dont know how arrogant he is or whatever or what kind of personality he has. But he is probably your best bet in the Triad as far as psychopharmacology goes.
And again, MUSC psychiatry has by far the closest thing to what your looking for as far as a creative psychiatry research environment. And I GUARANTEE you on that!
Overall though, I really wouldnt try to find here in NC what you left in Boston or NYC. Youre not gonna find it here cause it doesnt exist. No use in looking for something that isnt here.
Old School
Posted by Elizabeth on December 29, 2001, at 5:37:00
In reply to amisulpride » Elizabeth, posted by christophrejmc on December 28, 2001, at 17:24:06
> Have you heard of docs in the U.S. writing scripts for amisulpride to be filled elsewhere?
Not specifically amisulpride, but I know it's legal -- although there may be a lot of red tape, I'm not entirely sure -- to prescribe drugs not approved in the U.S. and get them from other countries. I have known American doctors who've done this with moclobemide, for example.
I'm not sure about the cost, as I don't have any personal experience getting meds from overseas (either the completely legit way, or using OPs). I gather that OPs tend to be pretty expensive, though.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on December 29, 2001, at 6:00:55
In reply to Re: psychopharm consultation - NYC or NC, posted by OldSchool on December 28, 2001, at 19:36:27
> I think Mattox is probably the best psychiatrist in your area. He'd probably try the kind of stuff you are talking about. I KNOW he uses MAOIs. I did hear he was kinda dictatorial though...strong personality. But likes to get creative and aggressive with the meds...I doubt Parnate would scare him at all.
Parnate's not what I'm worried about. Can you tell me what else you know about him, and how?
> Wasnt that a joke? I can already guess what happened to you. You called Duke Psychiatry expecting to experience the vaunted, elite "Duke Psychiatry" services but just got TRIAGED.
Yeah, they referred me to their outpatient clinic, which is *not* what I wanted -- it's just a bunch of general psychiatrists, and like those at WFU they are *very* conservative and rigid about what they will even consider prescribing (even if you're already taking it!).
> They make you see a "mood disorders counselor" for an hour to do initial eval before they even let you talk to a psychiatrist. What a f**cking joke.
An "intake appointment" is what they call that, I think (in general, maybe Duke has a different term for it). The idea is so they can get a sense of what you need and presumably find a doctor and/or therapist who'll be appropriate for you. The underlying assumption is, of course, that they know what you need better than you do.
> Duke psychiatry is ridiculously, outrageously overhyped. Duke does have a good ECT unit though.
If I ever get desperate enough to consider ECT, I'll consider that. I see ECT as a last resort, a sort of ace up my sleeve. At first I thought that the stories of bad things happening after ECT were just $cientologist propaganda, but since then I've seen reports coming from people who aren't just anti-psychiatry nuts. That's what has me worried: my memory, intelligence, etc. is the best thing I have going for me, and losing that would be a disaster for me.
> Thats the best thing about Duke Psychiatry...the rest of it, um well you can have it.
No thanks!
> How Duke psychiatry always makes it into those top ten ratings for psychiatry departments in US News and World Report I have no idea, because their clinical psychiatry department is no good.
The sad thing is, other places are even worse! McLean is always in the top three, but their outpatient clinic assigns you to a random pdoc and really isn't that great -- the really good doctors don't work out of the clinic, you have to ask for them specifically and a lot of them don't see patients I think (they just do research). McLean's mood & anxiety disorders partial program is so-so, but definitely not as good as the one I was in at a private clinic in Cambridge. I think hospitals have too many policies, regulations, red tape, etc. to be really effective.
> Gaddhi might be worth a shot, if you can get in with him. Good luck on that though.
I think that he might be one of the people whose names my doctor in Princeton gave me, actually. I wish I could find that list! (I'm chronically disorganized.)
> I like UNC much better than Duke. Its more "user friendly" than Duke is. The UNC idea might be a good one. There is a small neuropsychiatry group in Chapel Hill that does a lot of clinical trials for psych drugs. Im sure you could get those guys to let you try the stuff you wanna try.
That's interesting, and I'll keep it in mind. I don't want to get involved in clinical trials, though. I probably wouldn't qualify anyway b/c I'd have to go off all meds and then I'd be too severely depressed, and even if I did qualify, I might end up in the placebo group! That would suck.
> Yes, actually Baptist hospital is a very good hospital overall. Except for the psychiatry hehehe.
Yeah, my dad is getting treated for heart disease there -- he had n-tuple bypass surgery when I was twelve or so, today he's on a bunch of meds + special diet and exercise programs, and he's doing much better than he has in years.
> Like I said before, Mattox is aggressive and Ive heard good stuff about him. I dont know how arrogant he is or whatever or what kind of personality he has. But he is probably your best bet in the Triad as far as psychopharmacology goes.
I think I'll look him up -- he's very nearby. One problem I have with a lot of the private psychiatrists around here is that I can't talk to them before making an appointment, only their secretaries. So I have a hard time finding out what they're like.
> And again, MUSC psychiatry has by far the closest thing to what your looking for as far as a creative psychiatry research environment. And I GUARANTEE you on that!
The distance might be a problem -- any idea how long a drive it would be? (New York and DC are okay because I have relatives I could stay with there, and the Research Triangle is close enough that I could go there and back in a day.)
> Overall though, I really wouldnt try to find here in NC what you left in Boston or NYC. Youre not gonna find it here cause it doesnt exist. No use in looking for something that isnt here.
It's true. That's why I was hoping to get a consultation with someone who really knows their stuff, so that I'd be able to get some recommendations that someone here might listen to.
I hope you're doing well. Take it easy!
-elizabeth
Posted by OldSchool on December 29, 2001, at 10:09:42
In reply to Re: pdocs in NC » OldSchool, posted by Elizabeth on December 29, 2001, at 6:00:55
> > I think Mattox is probably the best psychiatrist in your area. He'd probably try the kind of stuff you are talking about. I KNOW he uses MAOIs. I did hear he was kinda dictatorial though...strong personality. But likes to get creative and aggressive with the meds...I doubt Parnate would scare him at all.
>
> Parnate's not what I'm worried about. Can you tell me what else you know about him, and how?I found out about Mattox thru my offline support group. The group facilitator, who is a masters degree level social worker at one of the local county mental health clinics told me about Mattox. At that time (this was about two years ago) I was looking for a new doctor, someone who was an "expert psychopharmacologist." Mattox's name came up, along with someone else's name whom Im not using on this board. This person who is facilitator at my offline support group used to work at Charter mental hospital in Winston before they shut down after Charter got sued and all. She also used to work over at Forsyth Memorial psych ward. And she got to know all the psychiatrists in the Winston area. So I trust her opinion on this stuff.
So anyway, in my offline support group I have this reputation as being the "med guy" who is all into biological psychiatry stuff. And the facilitator told me Mattox might be a good choice for me. She said that in the hospital (Forsyth Memorial) he was always pushy about having everything exact on charts and things...kind of dictatorial. Wanted things done fast and exact. Like he is kind of impatient with the hospital staff and just wants to cut thru the bull. And very good and knowledgeable about psychopharmacology. She also informed me that he referred one of his patients who was TRD to NIMH for further referral, which evidently really impressed all the social workers and low level mental health worker people.
If a psychiatrist voluntarily refers you to NIMH, that means they are interested in getting you better and they are willing to go the "extra mile" for you.
So I called New Directions and found they dont take the kind of insurance I have, otherwise I would have used Mattox myself.
Thats what I know about him. He is probably the best psychopharmacologist in the Winston area, probably in the whole Triad.
Just for your information, cause I know you are into opiates and all that kind of stuff, there is a psychiatrist over in the High Point area named Lauer whose specialty tends to be addiction. Im not telling you this cause I think you have an addiction problem, I dont. Im just telling you this cause Lauer has a good reputation as a general adult psychiatrist who knows a lot about meds AND he would know all about opiates, amphetamines, etc. and all that kind of stuff you are into.
Being that you know so interested in opiates and like to discuss them, Lauer might be a guy to go to. However as I said, he specializes more in getting people OFF addictive meds like opiates or booze, than in using them to treat mood disorders. However in your particular case which is unusual, you might click with Lauer. I heard he was OK as a psychiatrist, my family doc recommended him to me once and I have absolutely zippo substance abuse problems.
> An "intake appointment" is what they call that, I think (in general, maybe Duke has a different term for it). The idea is so they can get a sense of what you need and presumably find a doctor and/or therapist who'll be appropriate for you. The underlying assumption is, of course, that they know what you need better than you do.
I found Susan Van Meter extremely condescending and insolent, didnt even bother to shake my hand. DUMC is also very bad about getting your insurance paperwork screwed up, screwing up billing, etc.
> > Gaddhi might be worth a shot, if you can get in with him. Good luck on that though.
>
> I think that he might be one of the people whose names my doctor in Princeton gave me, actually. I wish I could find that list! (I'm chronically disorganized.)Mark George referred me to Gaddhi when I left MUSC, but Gaddhi wasnt taking patients. I was told he mostly did research and only had two or three patients. If you could talk him into taking you, he might be worth it though. John Beyer is OK also, a nice guy I heard although very busy.
>
>
> That's interesting, and I'll keep it in mind. I don't want to get involved in clinical trials, though. I probably wouldn't qualify anyway b/c I'd have to go off all meds and then I'd be too severely depressed, and even if I did qualify, I might end up in the placebo group! That would suck.Same here I dont do clinical trials anymore. Im done with that stuff.
>
> > Yes, actually Baptist hospital is a very good hospital overall. Except for the psychiatry hehehe.
>
> Yeah, my dad is getting treated for heart disease there -- he had n-tuple bypass surgery when I was twelve or so, today he's on a bunch of meds + special diet and exercise programs, and he's doing much better than he has in years.Yeah, Baptist is good overall.
>
> > Like I said before, Mattox is aggressive and Ive heard good stuff about him. I dont know how arrogant he is or whatever or what kind of personality he has. But he is probably your best bet in the Triad as far as psychopharmacology goes.
>
> I think I'll look him up -- he's very nearby. One problem I have with a lot of the private psychiatrists around here is that I can't talk to them before making an appointment, only their secretaries. So I have a hard time finding out what they're like.
>I dont agree with that. I think Mattox would talk to you on the phone first if you asked him to call you. Call his office, ask his secretary if he takes your insurance and if he does ask Mattox to call you first before you decide to go with him. I bet he'd talk to you first on the phone.
> > And again, MUSC psychiatry has by far the closest thing to what your looking for as far as a creative psychiatry research environment. And I GUARANTEE you on that!
>
> The distance might be a problem -- any idea how long a drive it would be? (New York and DC are okay because I have relatives I could stay with there, and the Research Triangle is close enough that I could go there and back in a day.)MUSC is about six hours driving from the Triad.
>
> > Overall though, I really wouldnt try to find here in NC what you left in Boston or NYC. Youre not gonna find it here cause it doesnt exist. No use in looking for something that isnt here.
>
> It's true. That's why I was hoping to get a consultation with someone who really knows their stuff, so that I'd be able to get some recommendations that someone here might listen to.
Id move back up North if I were you. Im seriously considering moving to Connecticut to live with my family there. NC sucks overall for psychiatry...everything about mental health here sucks. The laws regarding mental illness suck, the doctors suck...its better in New England.Old School
Posted by Mitchell on December 29, 2001, at 12:10:00
In reply to Redirect: Dr. Thomas Szasz found guilty?, posted by Dr. Bob on December 28, 2001, at 16:10:31
> > > I suppose if there is much discussion of this, it should be redirected to Pscyhosocial...
>
> Yes, please, thanks.
>
> Bob
Okay, but a link would probably be helpful for those who don't routinely read that other board.I requested additional information, from Jay or from anybody else, at: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20011216/msgs/15986.html
Posted by Cindylou on January 2, 2002, at 12:20:58
In reply to Balancing Supplements » Annie Z., posted by IsoM on December 19, 2001, at 18:07:28
Hi IsoM --
I have been wanting to get someone's opinion about a chiropracter I see, who believes all mental health issues are nutrition related, and can be treated solely through vitamins, herbs, etc.He mostly uses Standard Process vitamins ("Cataplex B" "Catalyn" etc.) and some by Biotics Research Corp.
He determines what vitamins I need, and how many pills I should take, by "muscle testing." (Have you ever heard of that before?) For me, he said I was extremely low in Vitamin B and protein (even thought I am very conscious of eating a lot of protein and not too many carbs).
Then, he threw some herbs my way, also by Standard Process. They include: "Chaste Tree", and a combination of Schisandra fruit, Damiana leaf, Skullcap herb, and St. John's Wort.
I have not taken the herbs, because I hear that they can be just as potent as meds but aren't regulated by the FDA ... I'm too leary to take them.
Do you know anything about what I've mentioned here? About the Standard Process company (who claims that they are "all natural" and that any other vitamin out there is not doing anything for you because it is not even synthesized into your system)? About muscle testing? Or about the herbs I mentioned?
I greatly appreciate your feedback. I am getting fed up with all the meds I try that don't work, and would love to be able to be treated "naturally," although I am skeptical.
If this post doesn't catch your eye since it's from an earlier thread, I'll make it a new thread later.
Thanks again,
cindy
Posted by IsoM on January 2, 2002, at 14:15:05
In reply to Questions for IsoM re vitamins, herbs » IsoM, posted by Cindylou on January 2, 2002, at 12:20:58
Cindy, what I'm writing you is my opinion based on what science & actual facts I know of. I realise not everyone will agree with me & that's fine but you did ask. Before I answer your question, for any others who may read this, I did manage a health food store a number of years ago & am a firm believer in good & sound nutrition but...
What your chiropractor is telling you is essentially bogus. There is no way by "muscle testing" that anyone can diagnose whether a person is low in certain nutrients or not. It's akin to many other 'New Age' treatments like swinging a pendulum in front of a person or holding a supplement near them to judge reactions. For effectiveness, it ranks along with telling a person's health by looking at the entrails of a chicken or by tossing dice. What benefits are felt is by placebo effect.
You can request blood tests from a doctor that CAN measure many levels of certain nutrients such as folic acid, B12, iron, calcium levels, etc. It may not just be blood tests but there are bonafide methods to tell.There are herbs which do have therapeutic effects - some are very potent, some aren't. My biggest beef with herbs is because they're not regulated, there's no guarantee on the potency of the active ingredients. Many different tests have been done on herbal supplements, some even by high school students as science projects, most by news agencies (using good labs for testing) reporting on herbs as a health-related news item. Tests have come back showing varying amounts of active ingredients - some have even come back showing absolutely none of what's supposed to be in the herbal supplements!
If you think you have a good source of herbs, you can always check with a good pharmacist for drug interactions with herbs. There's a thick handbook most pharmacies carry listing all known interactions. You can use this site to check for some drug interactions yourself & the benefits of the herbs you listed.
http://www.thedacare.org/healthinfo/
Just choose Herbal Remedies & also the Safety Checker.One time when I went off Paxil, I tried St. John's wort from a trusted company. I saw no effects though I went to the maximum level. Maybe it's not effective with my chemistry.
As for vitamins - it's from a chemistry & biology viewpoint, I have taken university levels courses, but never finished my degree, so my info is pretty factual. Whether a plant synthesises a vitamin, or a laboratory does, IF it's the same molecular structure, it's the same vitamin - same properties & benefits. Some vitamins cannot be synthesised successfully. Vitamin E is one of them. The synthetic form is a mirror image of the natural form (like our left hand vs our right hand). The synthetic form is relatively inactive so the natural form is needed. But for the B complex vitamins & vitamin C, lab-synthesised forms are just as effective & much, much cheaper. Still, I prefer to get my B vitamins from food as few, if any, B complex tablets have all the B vitamins or in a proper proportion. I use wheat germ, grains, beans, & nutritional yeast flakes for my B vitamins.
If you want to take a B supplement instead, you'll find much less expensive tablets in a good drug store. Just buy the ones that say "Stress" tabs (it generally includes vitamin C too) - they're the best balanced.
As for protein, it's *highly* unlikely you're deficient in protein by what you wrote. If he's recommending amino acid supplementation, that's all proteins are - amino acids, & you wouldn't need them either.
I do so understand how you feel taking meds. Sometimes I get fed up with them, but I've tried to do without antidepressants three times now. I realise that even with the healthiest diet, good & active lifestyle, & a positive cheerful outlook, I still need something extra. Chalk it up to bad genetics and/or a polluted environment now - I don't know but I do need extra.
Sorry to sound such a sour note about your chiropractor's recommendations but so much of what's said is phrased in "pseudo-scientific" language & it sounds believable for someone who may not have the science/biology/chemistry information to really analyse what is said.
***************************************************************************************************
> Hi IsoM --
> I have been wanting to get someone's opinion about a chiropracter I see, who believes all mental health issues are nutrition related, and can be treated solely through vitamins, herbs, etc.
>
> He mostly uses Standard Process vitamins ("Cataplex B" "Catalyn" etc.) and some by Biotics Research Corp.
>
> He determines what vitamins I need, and how many pills I should take, by "muscle testing." (Have you ever heard of that before?) For me, he said I was extremely low in Vitamin B and protein (even thought I am very conscious of eating a lot of protein and not too many carbs).
>
> Then, he threw some herbs my way, also by Standard Process. They include: "Chaste Tree", and a combination of Schisandra fruit, Damiana leaf, Skullcap herb, and St. John's Wort.
>
> I have not taken the herbs, because I hear that they can be just as potent as meds but aren't regulated by the FDA ... I'm too leary to take them.
>
> Do you know anything about what I've mentioned here? About the Standard Process company (who claims that they are "all natural" and that any other vitamin out there is not doing anything for you because it is not even synthesized into your system)? About muscle testing? Or about the herbs I mentioned?
>
> I greatly appreciate your feedback. I am getting fed up with all the meds I try that don't work, and would love to be able to be treated "naturally," although I am skeptical.
>
> If this post doesn't catch your eye since it's from an earlier thread, I'll make it a new thread later.
>
> Thanks again,
> cindy
>
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.