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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 34. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by SalArmy4me on August 20, 2001, at 15:17:13
I bought moclobemide, tianeptine, and reboxetine, and they were mailed to be in the U.S. Some companies require a prescription, and some companies do not.
Posted by LyndaK on August 20, 2001, at 17:11:08
In reply to Where to buy foreign antidepressants, posted by SalArmy4me on August 20, 2001, at 15:17:13
I recently ordered Adrafinil from a company in Great Britain (haven't received it yet). This is the first time I've ever done this. Although the company doesn't require a prescription for this drug, it sounds like the law(s) in this country require a prescription for bringing it in. Am I confused about the laws governing importation of drugs? And why would my physician write a prescription for something that is not FDA approved?
Posted by SalArmy4me on August 20, 2001, at 20:18:52
In reply to Re: Where to buy foreign antidepressants » SalArmy4me, posted by LyndaK on August 20, 2001, at 17:11:08
I had no trouble getting moclobemide, tianeptine, and reboxetine, so I don't know why you should have any trouble. If you don't get it from that company, get it from here: http://www.smart-drugs.net/antidepressants.htm
Posted by Cam W. on August 21, 2001, at 8:18:28
In reply to Re: Where to buy foreign antidepressants » LyndaK, posted by SalArmy4me on August 20, 2001, at 20:18:52
Sal - Do you think that it is a good idea to encourage people to break the law? - Cam
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 21, 2001, at 14:30:41
In reply to Re: Where to buy foreign antidepressants » SalArmy4me, posted by Cam W. on August 21, 2001, at 8:18:28
Sal,
Im afraid I'm with Cam on this.
It encourages people to self medicate, and this is incedibly dangerous. OK, some people are balanced and can make an informed decision, but this is a mental health board, and we have all be very un-blanced at times, and not able to make sensible decision over these things. I have been there, and very likely, if I have chosen to order meds without a prescription I would not be here now to type this.
Please, and I know you've been asked before, lay off posts giving people this info.
Nikki
> Sal - Do you think that it is a good idea to encourage people to break the law? - Cam
Posted by Jane D on August 21, 2001, at 16:27:19
In reply to Re: Where to buy foreign antidepressants » Cam W., posted by NikkiT2 on August 21, 2001, at 14:30:41
Nikki,
I'm afraid I have to back Sal at least to a point. But see my next post to Sal also.
In the first place I don't think this particular post was only about self medicating. Importing meds into the US from abroad doesn't have to mean you are bypassing your doctor, just the FDA. Whether this is a good idea is a whole nother issue.
Even if this is about self medicating I'd rather see you give your arguments against it (as you did) than to insist that the subject not be raised. It's an important issue and this is probably the best place to talk about the good and bad (as has been done). It's not like the practice is going to go away just because the discussion gets banned. And telling people where they can get something is not the same as telling them to go and do it.
Not everyone has access to a doctor to supervise them if the want it. This is even true in the US where we are still a long way from universal health care.
On legality. This is going to vary by country and from year to year. This board is dominated by people from the US, Canada and the UK but we're not the only ones here and I really doubt that importing meds is illegal in all the countries represented here. I'm not sure exactly what the US law is but it's pretty clear that we don't care much about enforcing it at the moment unless the drugs are controlled substances (in US that's completely illegal drugs like pot, heroin, or mdma or legal but restricted schedule 2 drugs considered useful medically but that could potentially be used to get high). I'd be very interested in knowing what the UK and Canadian (and any other) laws say and how they are being enforced.
Personally I don't self medicate and I probably never will. I fanatically follow instructions. And I prefer that my drugs have passed the FDA's hurdles. In fact, I'd like to see those hurdles made even higher. But it's fairly easy for me to say that since I think I have a doctor prescribed, 100% legal option that works. Not everyone does.
Jane
> Sal,
>
> Im afraid I'm with Cam on this.
>
> It encourages people to self medicate, and this is incedibly dangerous. OK, some people are balanced and can make an informed decision, but this is a mental health board, and we have all be very un-blanced at times, and not able to make sensible decision over these things. I have been there, and very likely, if I have chosen to order meds without a prescription I would not be here now to type this.
>
> Please, and I know you've been asked before, lay off posts giving people this info.
>
> Nikki
>
> > Sal - Do you think that it is a good idea to encourage people to break the law? - Cam
Posted by Jane D on August 21, 2001, at 16:30:36
In reply to Where to buy foreign antidepressants, posted by SalArmy4me on August 20, 2001, at 15:17:13
Jason,
I've just tried to defend your right to post this information but I'd like to suggest a change in the way you post it.
You've posted this information more than once already and I'm sure you will post it again. I'd really like to see you post a follow up to your last thread on the subject instead of starting a new one every time. This would be much easier to read. All your posts on the subject would be in the same place and so would all the replies from other people. This could result in a real discussion and would allow other people to add information to yours. It would also keep it from looking like you are starting new threads just to prevent people from reading the comments made on your earlier posts.
Please consider this.
Thanks,
Jane
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 21, 2001, at 17:26:11
In reply to Re: Where to buy foreign antidepressants » NikkiT2, posted by Jane D on August 21, 2001, at 16:27:19
You are obviously very self aware, and able to make yourself knowledgable. Sal even stated that one site didnt ask for prescriptions.
Some drugs *need* monitoring, such as lithium. What if they were buying potentially dangeous drugs, or self medicating themselves a dangerous combination. What about MAOI's with no doctor prescribing them and detailing their dangers.
It just really worries me.
Nikki
> Nikki,
>
> I'm afraid I have to back Sal at least to a point. But see my next post to Sal also.
>
> In the first place I don't think this particular post was only about self medicating. Importing meds into the US from abroad doesn't have to mean you are bypassing your doctor, just the FDA. Whether this is a good idea is a whole nother issue.
>
> Even if this is about self medicating I'd rather see you give your arguments against it (as you did) than to insist that the subject not be raised. It's an important issue and this is probably the best place to talk about the good and bad (as has been done). It's not like the practice is going to go away just because the discussion gets banned. And telling people where they can get something is not the same as telling them to go and do it.
>
> Not everyone has access to a doctor to supervise them if the want it. This is even true in the US where we are still a long way from universal health care.
>
> On legality. This is going to vary by country and from year to year. This board is dominated by people from the US, Canada and the UK but we're not the only ones here and I really doubt that importing meds is illegal in all the countries represented here. I'm not sure exactly what the US law is but it's pretty clear that we don't care much about enforcing it at the moment unless the drugs are controlled substances (in US that's completely illegal drugs like pot, heroin, or mdma or legal but restricted schedule 2 drugs considered useful medically but that could potentially be used to get high). I'd be very interested in knowing what the UK and Canadian (and any other) laws say and how they are being enforced.
>
> Personally I don't self medicate and I probably never will. I fanatically follow instructions. And I prefer that my drugs have passed the FDA's hurdles. In fact, I'd like to see those hurdles made even higher. But it's fairly easy for me to say that since I think I have a doctor prescribed, 100% legal option that works. Not everyone does.
>
> Jane
>
>
>
> > Sal,
> >
> > Im afraid I'm with Cam on this.
> >
> > It encourages people to self medicate, and this is incedibly dangerous. OK, some people are balanced and can make an informed decision, but this is a mental health board, and we have all be very un-blanced at times, and not able to make sensible decision over these things. I have been there, and very likely, if I have chosen to order meds without a prescription I would not be here now to type this.
> >
> > Please, and I know you've been asked before, lay off posts giving people this info.
> >
> > Nikki
> >
> > > Sal - Do you think that it is a good idea to encourage people to break the law? - Cam
Posted by Zo on August 21, 2001, at 22:41:59
In reply to Re: Where to buy foreign antidepressants » SalArmy4me, posted by Cam W. on August 21, 2001, at 8:18:28
> Sal - Do you think that it is a good idea to encourage people to break the law? - Cam
Dear Cam,
Some of us are grown-ups here (some of us are no doubt oldest person on PBabble). . .who by now know a great deal more about our dxs *and* about meds than most MDs. . .(and, as a quick perusal of the board will show, that is not a hard thing to do. Talk about idiotic, damaging advice.) . .
You are not allowing for the obvious desperation that drives people to import meds, or for the absurdity of waiting for the FDA, of all things, of suffering on account of *bureaucracy*? Surely you're not suggesting *that.*
You know this perfectly well, and it makes me crazy (that is a joke) when you talk Law & Order; clearly your intelligence is more wide-ranging than that. I hate to see these kind of threads come to the same old impasse/stop. Plus it's tiresome.
I wonder if you could show up on the board as Cam the person, and leave a bit of the job behind? We do need you. . .this is just Not Productive.
Fondly,
Zo
Posted by Cam W. on August 21, 2001, at 23:21:38
In reply to Cam! , posted by Zo on August 21, 2001, at 22:41:59
Zo - I sorry, but both the FDA and Health Canada ARE trying to stop the import of medications, without a doctor's approval through legal channels, from coming into the respective countries. If one doesn't want to have every out of country importation, be it meds, illicit animal skins, CDs, legal books, clothes, etc., from being flagged by customs, I would suggest not to order prescription medication from foreign countries. Chances are, the medications will be sent back, and I doubt that you will get a refund.
Yes, we are all adults, but we also should not be taking medications without someone with an objective stance (ie. our doctors) watching over us. This is dangerous and could potentially be lifethreatening. We are not doctors; therefore we should not be prescribing medications, especially for ourselves. Doctors are not even supposed to presribe for themselves. They are not using objective reasoning when self-prescribing, and neither are we.
- Cam
Posted by Mitch on August 22, 2001, at 0:01:19
In reply to Re: Cam! » Zo, posted by Cam W. on August 21, 2001, at 23:21:38
Cam,
Can you illustrate (by example) what the process would be in *legally* obtaining the med (i.e.-meclobomide) for a patient-regardless of insurance being willing to pay for the cost, etc., if the patient/doctor are both US residents and they want to get the med from Canada? I am ready for a trial of a RIMA, and the US is way behind everybody else in newer MAOI's.
Mitch
Posted by Cam W. on August 22, 2001, at 0:25:52
In reply to *Legal* medication importation-the process? » Cam W., posted by Mitch on August 22, 2001, at 0:01:19
Mitch - I don't know what you have to do in the U.S., but in Canada, your doctor has to write Health Canada with the request. The doc has to be able to show that all of the available medications have been given a reasonable trial, or valid reasons why they have not all been tried. Also, the doctor must provide information on why he/she thinks that the drug to be imported may work, where available drugs haven't.
Perhaps contact the FDA to find out what their procedure is. - Cam
Posted by LyndaK on August 22, 2001, at 1:30:24
In reply to Re: *Legal* medication importation-the process? » Mitch, posted by Cam W. on August 22, 2001, at 0:25:52
this is an interesting discussion. The concern of self-medicating is a good one. That's not what I'm doing. I've discussed this with my doctor. He said he would see what he could find out about the drug. From my own research, it sounds like Adrafinil is similar to Modafinil, which my doctor has already prescribed but which I don't tolerate well.
I received the adrafinil in the mail today -- no problem. I've never ordered anything from another country before, so all the stickers on the outside of the package are...well...foreign :)...to me. There's a green sticker on the back that says "Customs" on the top. It looks like it was filled out by the supplier. The contents are decribed as "supplements". Inside the package was the Adrafinil along with two sheets of paper. One paper provided information about the drug. The other paper, entitled "American Personal Importation Statement of Fact", informed me of my "constitutional right" to import this product.
I have more research to do. I looked up the FDA's website but didn't really find the information that answered my questions.
And why am I even going to all this trouble in the first place? I am desparate to feel whole and healthy again. Merely being free of suicidal ideations is not enough. Zoloft has brought me only so far, and created a few problems in the process. Reading the various threads here has introduced me to options I haven't yet tried.
Lynda
> Mitch - I don't know what you have to do in the U.S., but in Canada, your doctor has to write Health Canada with the request. The doc has to be able to show that all of the available medications have been given a reasonable trial, or valid reasons why they have not all been tried. Also, the doctor must provide information on why he/she thinks that the drug to be imported may work, where available drugs haven't.
>
> Perhaps contact the FDA to find out what their procedure is. - Cam
Posted by Zo on August 22, 2001, at 2:01:42
In reply to Re: Cam! » Zo, posted by Cam W. on August 21, 2001, at 23:21:38
I'm not "self-medicating" either. .. but I've seen stories on this board where people are a damn sight better off, if the point is to reduce suffering and get well, following other people's suggestions rather than some dopey MDs idea. . .So have you.
My pdoc knows what I do, we work together.. .but I'm *lucky,* Cam. He's an open-minded guy, who puts people before bureaucracy -- within reason. He won't rx Desoxyn, for example, says it would be like calling up the FDA and saying Would you please go thru all my records?
It just doesn't make any *sense* to characterize what's going on here in negative ways like Self-medicating, shame shame.
Zo
Posted by Craig on August 22, 2001, at 2:46:14
In reply to Re: *Legal* medication importation-the process? » Mitch, posted by Cam W. on August 22, 2001, at 0:25:52
"Although any citizen with a prescription from a U.S. doctor can cross over to Canada to purchase medication for themselves, they must first get the prescription endorsed by a Canadian doctor." This article http://www.freep.com/news/health/canam21_20010821.htm was in the Detroit Free Press yesterday and explains the procedure.
=================================================
> Mitch - I don't know what you have to do in the U.S., but in Canada, your doctor has to write Health Canada with the request. The doc has to be able to show that all of the available medications have been given a reasonable trial, or valid reasons why they have not all been tried. Also, the doctor must provide information on why he/she thinks that the drug to be imported may work, where available drugs haven't.
>
> Perhaps contact the FDA to find out what their procedure is. - Cam
Posted by JohnL on August 22, 2001, at 3:13:48
In reply to Where to buy foreign antidepressants, posted by SalArmy4me on August 20, 2001, at 15:17:13
Interesting thread this is. I just thought I would put in my 2 cents. I happen to approve of someone importing their own meds. Maybe it is illegal in Canada, but it is not illegal in the USA. A 90 day supply can be legally imported. Actually the border lines between what is legal and illegal are kind of fuzzy, but at this point the DEA and the FDA do allow it. And it's a good thing. There are people who would otherwise still be suffering otherwise, but are now enjoying vastly improved lives.
Lots of people have imported foreign meds, mostly dopamine or norepinephrine medicines. I am not aware of a single case where any damage was done.
Someone else mentioned that many people here are grown up and they know what they are doing. I happen to agree with that. The ones who are totally ignorant are not usually found at this site, and are not the ones who will take the leap and order their own meds.
The body doesn't know and doesn't care who prescribed the drug. If the patient self administered the drug, or if a doctor did it, the body doesn't know or care. Someone would have to be real careless to do themselves any harm by self administering a med imported from another country.
And finally, the real potentially dangerous drugs, such as MAOIs, stimulants, and benzos, cannot be legally imported. Though it can be done with a huge amount of effort, it is nearly impossible.
I think people at psychobabble happen to know more about their own condition and their own meds than do the doctors. I have much more faith in a patient's own decisions than a doctor's decision. If the doctors were so darn good and all knowing, this site would have no purpose to exist.
John
Posted by Mitch on August 22, 2001, at 9:26:48
In reply to Americans buying medicine in Canada, posted by Craig on August 22, 2001, at 2:46:14
> "Although any citizen with a prescription from a U.S. doctor can cross over to Canada to purchase medication for themselves, they must first get the prescription endorsed by a Canadian doctor." This article http://www.freep.com/news/health/canam21_20010821.htm was in the Detroit Free Press yesterday and explains the procedure.
>
> =================================================
> > Mitch - I don't know what you have to do in the U.S., but in Canada, your doctor has to write Health Canada with the request. The doc has to be able to show that all of the available medications have been given a reasonable trial, or valid reasons why they have not all been tried. Also, the doctor must provide information on why he/she thinks that the drug to be imported may work, where available drugs haven't.
> >
> > Perhaps contact the FDA to find out what their procedure is. - CamThanks Craig and Cam,
I see there is one way to obtain a med not currently approved by the FDA here-I need a Canadian doctor to approve it along with my doctor, and I have to physically go to Canada and fill it in a Canadian pharmacy and then physically return to the US. There may be some other allowances but I haven't found anything about them-any that will hold water legally.
Mitch
Posted by Jane D on August 22, 2001, at 11:04:40
In reply to Re: Where to buy foreign antidepressants » Jane D, posted by NikkiT2 on August 21, 2001, at 17:26:11
> You are obviously very self aware, and able to make yourself knowledgable. Sal even stated that one site didnt ask for prescriptions.
>
> Some drugs *need* monitoring, such as lithium. What if they were buying potentially dangeous drugs, or self medicating themselves a dangerous combination. What about MAOI's with no doctor prescribing them and detailing their dangers.
>
> It just really worries me.
>
> Nikki
>Nikki,
I can think of another downside you didn't mention. Even if you are rational enough to make these decisions initially, many of these drugs have the potential to muddle your thinking as a side effect. You need someone (not necessarily a doctor) to say "Uh, You're acting a little weird these days".But one problem with arguing that whether or not a drug is prescription is all that matters is that this is not a constant. You told us that benzo's were available OTC in Thailand. Does this mean they are OK to be used unsupervised there but not in the US? I doubt that even similar countries like the US, UK and Canada agree completely on which drugs are which.
And does the nature of a drug really change over time. The new antihistamines are prescriptions only in the US. Doctors have said they should be OTC but the drugs companies are contesting it. They would have to charge less but they claim it is about the need for medical monitoring.
Jane
By the way what was Thailand like? Did the availability of Benzos change the way they were used?
Posted by Jane D on August 22, 2001, at 11:21:47
In reply to Re: Cam! » Zo, posted by Cam W. on August 21, 2001, at 23:21:38
> Zo - I sorry, but both the FDA and Health Canada ARE trying to stop the import of medications, without a doctor's approval through legal channels, from coming into the respective countries.
Cam,
OK. You've made a good point. People should know what the risks are even if they are not that great (US only) at the moment. In the US this is a grey area as JohnL said. Most of the time customs lets drugs through. Sometimes they seize them. But that ambiguity can't last and the first time we hear that it has changed will be when Customs starts seizing shipments AND prosecuting.And if you decide to take the risk make sure you know what category your drugs fall into! The ban on importing scheduled drugs is not at all a grey area!
Jane
Posted by SalArmy4me on August 22, 2001, at 13:38:22
In reply to Re: Americans buying medicine in Canada » Craig, posted by Mitch on August 22, 2001, at 9:26:48
You can save yourself a lot of trouble by buying it without a prescription
I ordered Tianeptine and Reboxetine and got good products.
Posted by JohnL on August 22, 2001, at 16:51:01
In reply to Re: Americans buying medicine in Canada » Craig, posted by Mitch on August 22, 2001, at 9:26:48
I once tried Moclobemide, before I found it on the web. I went through the whole routine in Canada. I live 5 hours away. I drove there, saw a Canadian doctor who prescribed it for me, and then got the prescription filled at the pharmacy next door. Crossing the border back into the US I had to show a copy of the prescription and a copy of my receipt for the doctor visit.
It's so much easier just to order it online.
John
Posted by JohnL on August 22, 2001, at 17:11:01
In reply to Re: Cam! - Advisability and Legality of Importing » Cam W., posted by Jane D on August 22, 2001, at 11:21:52
In the USA it is legal to import medications under the following constraints:
1. They are for personal use and not for resale.
2. They are not commercially promoted.
3. They are of less than 3 months supply.
4. They are not classified as controlled substances.Here's something real interesting. Did you know...that any government official who tries to deny an American their right to import legally within the above contraints can be fined up to $10,000 and imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. 18USCC Section 241 and 242.
In other words, it is not the patient who is at risk of going to jail for importing a legal unscheduled medication, but rather any government official who stands in the way who is at risk of going to jail, especially if they haven't studied basic laws that apply to them.
Posted by Cam W. on August 22, 2001, at 17:32:59
In reply to Re: Cam! - Advisability and Legality of Importing, posted by JohnL on August 22, 2001, at 17:11:01
John - In Canada, the importation of medications requires a doctor's prescription and indications for use. What is the big to-do in the U.S. with the FDA clamp down on importing medication from interent sites without a prescription? Does the FDA directive only cover medications in the US that are already available on prescription?
Still, it seems to me that self medication is risky (but that is only my personal observation). What if someone became (oh, let's say) manic from using unprescribed medications from overseas and caused harm to someone else? I doubt that the person would be exempt from prosecution, because the medication they were taking was not prescribed to them. I guess it would be treated much the same as an alcohol-related incident. I don't think that (for me) the liability would be worth the risk.
Thinking out loud. - Cam
>
> In the USA it is legal to import medications under the following constraints:
> 1. They are for personal use and not for resale.
> 2. They are not commercially promoted.
> 3. They are of less than 3 months supply.
> 4. They are not classified as controlled substances.
>
> Here's something real interesting. Did you know...that any government official who tries to deny an American their right to import legally within the above contraints can be fined up to $10,000 and imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. 18USCC Section 241 and 242.
>
> In other words, it is not the patient who is at risk of going to jail for importing a legal unscheduled medication, but rather any government official who stands in the way who is at risk of going to jail, especially if they haven't studied basic laws that apply to them.
Posted by Mitch on August 22, 2001, at 23:24:07
In reply to Re: Americans buying medicine in Canada » Mitch, posted by SalArmy4me on August 22, 2001, at 13:38:22
> You can save yourself a lot of trouble by buying it without a prescription
> I ordered Tianeptine and Reboxetine and got good products.I will discuss it with my pdoc as an option. If I get a thumbs up I will consider it. Price is also a consideration :) (no pun intended)
Thanks,
Mitch
Posted by Mitch on August 22, 2001, at 23:53:53
In reply to Re: Cam! - Advisability and Legality of Importing, posted by JohnL on August 22, 2001, at 17:07:44
>
> In the USA it is legal to import medications under the following constraints:
> 1. They are for personal use and not for resale.
> 2. They are not commercially promoted.
> 3. They are of less than 3 months supply.
> 4. They are not classified as controlled substances.
>
> Here's something real interesting. Did you know...that any government official who tries to deny an American their right to import legally within the above contraints can be fined up to $10,000 and imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. 18USCC Section 241 and 242.John,
Thanks for that info. If my pdoc feels comfortable with prescribing it (as if it would have been available in the US), then it is an option I will consider. However, I wouldn't be surprised if most pdocs would not even think of it because it would place the legal burden on them for condoning a patient to take unapproved meds. If I flip-out or have a stroke, i.e., my pdoc could be held liable and would have little protection. And if I go behind my pdoc's back and import the meds and self-medicate that wrecks the doctor patient relationship. I think it would be a lot easier if Canada and the U.S could become more of a "common market" with respect to newer meds being available to their respective populaces without getting medical mullahs and pharmaceutical companies doing battle at everybody's expense. Do I sniff something here called NAFTA??
Mitch
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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