![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 211 to 235 of 434. Go back in thread:
Posted by Elizabeth on August 11, 2001, at 13:06:14
In reply to Re: Update » Elizabeth, posted by Lorraine on August 11, 2001, at 1:34:14
(re Recovery Inc.)
> Mainly, a CBT type group.But it's a self-help group, there isn't a psychologist or anyone like that involved?
> > (I remain unconvinced that CBT has any specific effect in depression.)
>
> Have you tried it?Yes; I was very into it for a while. I was convinced by the research that it was superior to other types of psychotherapy and that I needed to try it. And maybe it was a good idea to try, but in the end it didn't do much good for my depression. I did learn some tricks that have helped a lot with the panic attacks. I was first dx'ed with panic disorder by the psychologist I was seeing for CBT, and just knowing what it was helped a lot; I also learned some relaxation techniques. So I can't say it was completely useless. :-)
> I do think that there are the physical and the mental aspects. Now, when physical is the only issue, I wouldn't expect it to be of too much help. But lots of times, both mental and physical is involved.
What do you mean by all this? It's a little confusing to me.
> Turns out there are people who are insensitive to side effects also--that might be you?
Not especially. I notice them, but I tolerate them. It's just stoicism, nothing more.
> Effexor--I was at 150 XR. It seemed to completely control my depression.
150 is a reasonable dose, not unusually low. Why did you stop taking it?
> The Adderal was in conjunction with Selegiline (Adderal 7.5 mg 2x day; Selegiline 2.5 2x day; Neurontin 300 3x day).
Again, 15 mg/day isn't that unusual a dose of Adderall for an adult, especially with all the other stuff you were using.
> Actually, I'm doing a retrospective mood chart (like the one the NIMH uses) as a project right now. Just finished reviewing my files. If you are interested in the final result (which include my own cool chart in Word Format), Id be willing to share. O/w I will let you know what the results of the side effect/ partial response survey is.
Except for the Word part, I'd like to see that, although charting retrospectively isn't ideal. (I've seen too many viruses that are transmitted through Word to be willing to open a .doc attachment. < g >)
> Oh. Well, I've found some of my most useful therapy in CBT. I've also found regular talk therapy useful. I think it depends on what you are trying to address.
That's probably true. As I mentioned, I found some of the things I learned in CBT helpful for panic disorder.
> It's one thing to not be interested in hanging out with the other kids; it's another to not fit in and hunger for it. I was the latter. It sounds like you were the former.
Not generally, but when I was depressed I was. I usually (when not depressed) come out right in the middle when I take those tests that are supposed to rate how extroverted or introverted you are. I have friends, I like to party and so forth, but I also need quite a lot of time to myself, and a lot of my interests and hobbies are pretty solitary.
> That is a stroke of luck--genetic luck--to have found been inner directed rather than outer directed. That's great.
How so?
> No, all the investment brokers take off in August and the therapists are forced to go on holiday out of boredom;-)
< G > (I thought a joke like that needed to be made there!)
> > Klonopin is usually effective for treating antidepressant-induced bruxism, I think. It also might help you sleep.
>
> Thanks, it's on my list.Benzos, Klonopin in particular, seem to be good for a variety of sleep disorders. I take Klonopin for RBD, and it works great.
You and Shelli both agreed that there don't seem to be many successful marriages. I've been seeing that a lot. Seeing the effect that divorce has on children has made me more appreciative of my own parents, who've been together for 27 years.
[re rapid onset of effects]
Parnate has a stimulant-like action that you may notice very shortly after starting it. I think that this should be looked into further; it might be the reason why some people have spontaneous episodes of hypertension on Parnate.> I asked my pdoc about drug interactions to be careful of with Parnate. He said the major ones were Demmeral and morphene.
Demerol yes, morphine no. Morphine (the main active constituent of opium) is the treatment of choice if a person on MAOIs needs opioids for moderate-severe pain. I've taken morphine with Parnate a couple of times, as well as codeine and hydrocodone. As Shelli's experience demonstrates, oxycodone (which is comparable to morphine in its efficacy but has much better oral bioavailability) is also safe. Demerol and Ultram are the only ones that I know of that are unsafe; you might be cautious of other synthetic ones, like Darvon. The natural (codeine, morphine) and semisynthetic (oxycodone, hydrocodone, oxymorphone (NuMorphan), hydromorphone (Dilaudid), and of course heroin) ones are all okay, as is buprenorphine. I think methadone is too. I'm not sure about Stadol, Talwin, or Nubain. I think that covers most of them. :-)
-elizabeth
Posted by shelliR on August 11, 2001, at 18:48:59
In reply to Re: Update » shelliR, posted by Elizabeth on August 11, 2001, at 0:02:00
> > FYI, many people with DID have migraines from switching, especially between parts that sap their energy.
> Huh. What do you mean by "parts that sap their energy?"I had seen people (in the hospital) who have had very angry parts (alters). One woman had to work with a certain alter because she was not co-conscious with the alter and the alter was putting her life in danger. This was a very interesting case because the woman was very very conservative, but the alter was a lesbian. So she felt very humiliated when she talked about it in group therapy. She had been sexually abused by her mother, so probably this alter developed out of those experiences. Her primary "self" was a straight wife/mother. Anyway negotiations had to take place about safety. Every time this alter came out she was enraged (about something, I don't know the gritty details) and the woman always came "to" with a horrible migraine. Lucky for her, she was not on an MAOI, so she was given a shot for migraines and it did work for her.
And actually I have seen variations of this-- that the alters who are angry when out take a toll on the body. In my case when alters are out I do not feel possessed, but in cases where extremely angry alters are out, the main personaity can feel in her body that something has happened, and it sort of is like a possession in a way.
> > > Best of luck to you, as always.
> > Dittto
> :-)
:-)
Shelli
Posted by shelliR on August 11, 2001, at 19:42:11
In reply to Re: Update Lorainne, Elizabeth, et. al. » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on August 11, 2001, at 2:02:50
Hi Lorraine.
> > > Fair enough. But what about the wanting to be at the center, wanting undiluted attention--not in a general way, but that thing that kids do "look at me"; Mommy listen to me.
>
> I wasn't saying this from the mother's perspective; I meant from the child's perspective--that perhaps that's one of the things the therapists hour helps fill--this unmet need from childhood. And, of course, you're right that being the mother in this situation does not fill that void (not at all).yes, I understand now. Every child does need that from someone, I think best senario from the mother. And you are the mother . :-)
>
>
> And, by the way, I wanted to be in the center as well (even though I had terrible SA)--my center was the center of success in the business world, maybe this was safer for me. I suspect that people can be similarly wounded and look to heal those wounds differently.
>
> > > > I understand that. In terms of myself, however, my creative urges really have to be played out. I have to be totally self absorbed for part of my work, and interestly, for the other part I must be totally without ego. I'll send you my website address, so I won't sound so mysterious. I'm not Van Gogh! I might have been able to give that up when I was younger, but now that would be impossible, I would not be happy. I *have* to be creating something. So maybe it is good that I am not a mom, although it was not especially by choice. I have some shame issues about that; interestingly it brings up shame, rather than loneliness for me.
>
> I think it's great that you have a creative outlet. It sounds wonderful. I'm glad you are able to fully explore this part of you. There is a certain focus required.I thought you had your e-mail listed but I don't see it. If you want just create a temp e-mail and I'll send you the url for my website. I am one of about three or four people who are well known and highly respected for this type of work in the fairly large area that is my client base. In an area of mostly attorneys, government, journalists, research (NIH), consulting, I get to be the one of the best of a few people who are well known with my style. So I guess that is the way that I kind of get to be in the center; although I had no idea that it was going to happen that way. It was a gift that came out of much turmoil in my life. I was unable to work. I had planned to become a clinical psychologist, but wasn't together enough (I knew that, but even so got a masters), so this came out of going back to take a couple of art classes at my therapist's insistance at the time that I create some structure in my life. I now have absolutely no desire to be a therapist.
> It's interesting that you have shame issues surrounding this, yes. Shelli, it would be a pretty boring world if we all chose the >same path. The key is to do what fits for you and it sounds like you are doing this beautifully. I'm afraid that I have >sounded a bit like a poster child for motherhood. Yikes!
>
Well maybe I'd feel less shame if I had *chosen* not to have children. Anyway, my therapist and I do work on that shame part, under the category of "shame of my earlier adulthood" ,different from "childhood shame" :-)
> > > >I think it is definitely hormonal; it feels like I'm am having pms time all the time. I saw my gyn (of course on a really good day), and we both thought I should wait to add estrogen until I saw the effects of the parnate.
>
> Does she think estrogen is the right course for hormonally related PMS? I had thought it was Progesterone for that.Well, it has a perimenopausal element to it; it's all very confusing to me. Today I got my period for the second time in three weeks, so that's why this has been such a hard time. This is the third day I've felt really sick, although for most of today I was okay, fell asleep and then woke up very sick in my stomach again, but at least without the migraine. I should be through this tomorrow and it probably would have helped if I had taken natural progesterone, but I didn't even realize why I felt so bad until I started spotting.
>
> > > > I have to remember it was a full five weeks until I felt any anti-depressant effects from nardil.
>
> I have read that Parnate is quicker than Nardil in it's effects. Let's hope so.
I do hope so but remembering the nardil experience helps me hang in there without any disappointmnet day to day. Plus the absence of any side effects (I think) doesn't hurt either. If I wasn't going through this woman stuff, I could easily wait for the parnate to kick in because the oxy gets me through. Today, I had no depression; it was all physical bad stuff.
>
> My pdoc, by the way, decided that I should stay the course at 10 mg/day and try to take the full dose in the morning--augmenting with 2.5 mg of Adderal in the afternoon if necessary. He thinks for sleep, I should just bump up the Neurontin.
>You sound like you have a really good doctor; I can't remember why you were thinking of changing.
> I hope things start turning up for you soon.
Moi aussi.Shelli
Posted by shelliR on August 11, 2001, at 19:57:12
In reply to Re: Update » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on August 11, 2001, at 2:07:25
Lorraine...
>
> I asked my pdoc about drug interactions to be careful of with Parnate. He said the major ones were Demmeral and morphene. Are opiates morphene? Also, he could be wrong-he said it casually and for me it wasn't an issue.Well I wasn't worried about oxycontin and parnate in terms of hypertension. I was more focusing on if the oxy could stop the parnate from full effectivenss. Obviously my pdoc didn't think so, but I don't know what the other pdoc guy meant.
>
> Shelli--I thought your comment to Cam was actually a good one. It made me rethink things a bit.I don't understand this. Do you mean about the poster that he was angry at? I sort of wanted to address this issue (lack of response when directly asked ), but I didn't want to say it in that thread or on the admin board, because the last thing I wanted was people riled up on sides! I would have emailed him if I had his address, just to ask. Because it is pretty bad, I think, not to answer a person's technical question because of prior bad feeling or just not liking someone. And I could tell it was not an oversight because questions to him were addressed both above and below my post. But whatever. I am less upset today and can wait a week until my pdoc returns.
What did my comment make you rethink?
Shelli
Posted by shelliR on August 12, 2001, at 0:40:10
In reply to Stuff » shelliR, posted by Elizabeth on August 11, 2001, at 22:20:43
> Hi Shelli. I get what you mean now about energy-sapping alters -- thanks. I'm really learning some useful things about dissociative disorders from you, I think.
>
I'm glad; it's a topic I know a lot about, unlike uh medical stuff. :-)
> [re migraines]
> If Imitrex and the other -triptans are contraindicated (e.g., if the patient is on a MAOI), morphine or Dilaudid or somesuch can always be used (just not Demerol). Of course, doctors hate to prescribe or dispense those drugs, especially injectable formulations, so many people who take MAOIs and who get migraines probably are undertreated (or just plain untreated).
>
well, I just have been loading myself with various and sundry synthetic codeine and it works for the migraine, but then I may be jeopardizing the anti-depressant effects by building up a tolerance. It doesn't seem like that yet, though. When I load up on it because of a migraine, if I don't have a migraine the next day I'm able to go back to my regular dose.> [re your career history:]
> > ... I was unable to work. I had planned to become a clinical psychologist, but wasn't together enough (I knew that, but even so got a masters), so this came out of going back to take a couple of art classes at my therapist's insistance at the time that I create some structure in my life. I now have absolutely no desire to be a therapist.
> Grad school is tough, probably even in psychology. :-) I didn't even make it through a trimester (I was briefly a math grad student; this was when I was on Nardil for the second time, and just like the first time, it pooped out on me).:-) As far as grad school in psychology, most of all I really loved my course on methodology. I think everyone should be required to take a methodology course, no matter what field they are in. It makes you a more educated reader of any study. One of my most fun research jobs was to write the methodology instrument used for evaluating results of studies funded by congress on crime and the environment. Evaluating the studies was a joke, because right off there was no control group in most of the studies. These studies were a total waste of money. One of my neighbors has a great position at a local university. She teaches one class a semester and all the rest of the time she gets to do her own research. Criminology is a good field to go into because congress always throws a lot of money into "fighting crime".
>> I love this idea that some therapists seem to have that your life will be fine if only you get some "structure," which usually means either (1)getting a job that you're way overqualified for, on the grounds that it will be easy for you -- which isn't necessarily true -- and that it's a "stepping stone" to getting where you want to be, or (2) getting involved in a day treatment or partial program (intensive group therapy). I think that in option (1) the job is usually something that's so ill-suited to the individual that s/he just can't do it (and his/her self-esteem is lowered even more over being unable to do a theoretically "easy" job), and option (2) just further isolates a person further from the real/normal/sane world (okay, maybe "sane" is a bit much < g >).
Yes, I totally agree with your analysis of options (1) and (2) and I would add regarding option (1) that one can still experience horrible boredom even when one is depressed, another major problem with that option. Boredom is worse than anything for me. Now there could be option (3) however: just going to a non-career oriented class--one of the arts, or yoga, whatever. (maybe for you, math) < vbg >
In defense of my therapist (who was about three therapists ago), I didn't ever get the impression that she thought my life would be fine if I got some structure, but I do think if you can find the right structure, it is a healthier way to go, rather than hang out at home everyday by yourself. And it doesn't have to be like all day, every day. Just sort of someway to know it's Tuesday instead of Thursday. Also I was living alone, so I really did need to get out and communicate in some way. I had no idea that it would turn out to have everything to do with my future profession. Taking art classes at a community college was perfect for me. There were your basic 18 year olds, but there were also your senior citizens, and your emotionally disabled, because classes are free for the later categories. It turned out to be a really comfortable place for me to hang out, and my evening class (drawing) was mostly working people, so taking one day class and one evening class was good. But it was good because I wasn't trying to tie it in to career at all, just trying to have a relaxing class with no homework. Some of the design and color classes had tons of homework, so I never took any of them.
> I have a question for you: in your last post, the one directed to Lorraine, you referred to some dispute in a different thread. Could you point me toward the posts in question (the ones where you had the dispute)? Just curious.
no dispute, just a difference of opinion (and one of several over the last year): starts with http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010725/msgs/72674.html. But I'm not sure that Lorraine even meant that, and I definitely feel strange talking about someone instead of to them. If there was any way that I could have said it to the person involved without everyones else's .02, and the possibility of a heated battle, that would have been the decent thing to do. I just I feel like I can say anything on this thread because I would assume that most people, even those who started reading it, would have given up following it out of confusion, boredom, whatever. < g >
Wow, 1:36 am est!
Goodnight.....................................
Shelli
Posted by Elizabeth on August 12, 2001, at 6:02:13
In reply to Re: Stuff » Elizabeth, posted by shelliR on August 12, 2001, at 0:40:10
> > Hi Shelli. I get what you mean now about energy-sapping alters -- thanks. I'm really learning some useful things about dissociative disorders from you, I think.
>
> I'm glad; it's a topic I know a lot about, unlike uh medical stuff. :-)I think exchanging knowledge is a good thing.
> well, I just have been loading myself with various and sundry synthetic codeine and it works for the migraine, but then I may be jeopardizing the anti-depressant effects by building up a tolerance.
Maybe. How much hydrocodone do you take for a migraine?
> It doesn't seem like that yet, though. When I load up on it because of a migraine, if I don't have a migraine the next day I'm able to go back to my regular dose.
I think intermittent, ad hoc use of opiates (like you were doing before with the hydro) is probably going to be the best for you, since the OxyContin seems to be losing effect. Since you did it for a long time without overusing and without needing to increase the dose, I don't see a problem with it. It'd be nicer if you could just keep taking oxycodone with no tolerance, but it doesn't look like that's what's happening.
> :-) As far as grad school in psychology, most of all I really loved my course on methodology. I think everyone should be required to take a methodology course, no matter what field they are in. It makes you a more educated reader of any study.
Oh, I agree thoroughly. It was something I was supposed to learn in my required lab course, and I took a probability class my freshman year that covered statistical methods somewhat, but I never really had a good grasp of that stuff, and I would like to. I'm hoping that my significant other, who originally was studying to be a neuropharmacologist, can teach me some of that sutff. I have picked up some along the way from reading critiques and so forth, but nothing really substitutes for good old-fashioned formal education.
> One of my neighbors has a great position at a local university. She teaches one class a semester and all the rest of the time she gets to do her own research.
Sounds like my dad (philosophy prof), only he writes instead of doing research (although there's a lot of research required for his writings, that's for sure).
> Criminology is a good field to go into because congress always throws a lot of money into "fighting crime".
Heh. My sister has gotten interested in criminology. (She's a film student, an area where I could see her applying what she learns about criminology!)
> Yes, I totally agree with your analysis of options (1) and (2) and I would add regarding option (1) that one can still experience horrible boredom even when one is depressed, another major problem with that option.
When I'm depressed I don't enjoy anything. It's not boredom exactly, more just flatness: things don't perk me up, I can't find the silver lining even when there's no cloud.
> Now there could be option (3) however: just going to a non-career oriented class--one of the arts, or yoga, whatever. (maybe for you, math) < vbg >
Between MIT and UCSB, I've been so traumatised by math that I don't think I could bear to do it again!
My problem is I'm just not artistic. I mean, not at all: I'm not good at it, and I don't enjoy it. And anyway, I think I'd hardly be able to do any decent art if I were depressed at the time -- jeez, that's so hard to imagine even.
> In defense of my therapist (who was about three therapists ago), I didn't ever get the impression that she thought my life would be fine if I got some structure, but I do think if you can find the right structure, it is a healthier way to go, rather than hang out at home everyday by yourself.
Well, that's true -- if it's the right structure. But the idea that *any* sort of structure is better than no structure really bothers me. I would hate to be forced into a work, school, or therapy situation that would make me feel even more miserable and down on myself.
> no dispute, just a difference of opinion (and one of several over the last year): starts with http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010725/msgs/72674.html.
Ahh. You mean http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010731/msgs/72750.html ?
I sort of feel like Sal does try to present an image of himself as someone who is an "expert," and I believe Cam is probably right that Sal doesn't have a very sophisticated or critical understanding of the articles he cites; I also get the impression (just an impression) that Sal is trying to impress people by cutting and pasting articles without much regard for the source and without really understanding the full results and implications of the articles that he is citing. A person with a healthy skepticism wouldn't take Sal's abstract/article/URL posts too seriously (although, to be fair, they often do contribute interesting ideas), but let's be real here: not everyone has a healthy skepticism, and I don't believe in gratuitously victimising people for being ignorant. You know?
In general, I would say that Cam raised some important issues, but it seemed to me that he was overreacting, almost taking it personally or something.
> But I'm not sure that Lorraine even meant that, and I definitely feel strange talking about someone instead of to them.
Fair enough (that's why I addressed Cam in the subject: line). I'd like some feedback from Lorraine as to what she was talking about, too. Lorraine? You there? :-)
> If there was any way that I could have said it to the person involved without everyones else's .02, and the possibility of a heated battle, that would have been the decent thing to do.
Okay, now I'm confused again.
> I just I feel like I can say anything on this thread because I would assume that most people, even those who started reading it, would have given up following it out of confusion, boredom, whatever. < g >
Heh. Yeah, I have trouble believing that anybody besides us 3 is really following this thread. It's kinda cool actually.
> Wow, 1:36 am est!
Much later than that, dude! (It's actually EDT, BTW.)
> Goodnight.....................................
Sweet dreams.
-elizabeth
Posted by shelliR on August 12, 2001, at 11:38:39
In reply to Shelli et al, Cam too if you're reading this » shelliR, posted by Elizabeth on August 12, 2001, at 6:02:13
>
> > well, I just have been loading myself with various and sundry synthetic codeine and it works for the migraine, but then I may be jeopardizing the anti-depressant effects by building up a tolerance.
> Maybe. How much hydrocodone do you take for a migraine?
generally about 11.25mg in addition to the 20 oyx a day.
>
> >
> I think intermittent, ad hoc use of opiates (like you were doing before with the hydro) is probably going to be the best for you, since the OxyContin seems to be losing effect. Since you did it for a long time without overusing and without needing to increase the dose, I don't see a problem with it. It'd be nicer if you could just keep taking oxycodone with no tolerance, but it doesn't look like that's what's happening.On bad days, I know 20mg of oxycontin is not enough, so that why I have a prn of 10 also. But for migraines that doesn't cut it. But I don't think that the parnate is touching me yet; it's only been five days and today I'll go up to 20mg. So I'm not really worried; I think it will eventually kick in for at least partial relief, but if it doesn't I may have a problem with the oxycontin. But, for instance, I didn't wake up depressed yesterday or today, so maybe it's having some sort of small effects, or it's just that my hormones aren't acting crazy. I have always had breakthrough depression premenstrually on nardil, that's when I started supplementing with vicodin. When I have two periods in a month, then I have more PMS and more depression. I think the parnate needs more time and probably a higher dose; my pdoc would like to get me up to 40mg.
>
> > :-) As far as grad school in psychology, most of all I really loved my course on methodology. I think everyone should be required to take a methodology course, no matter what field they are in. It makes you a more educated reader of any study.
>
> Oh, I agree thoroughly. It was something I was supposed to learn in my required lab course, and I took a probability class my freshman year that covered statistical methods somewhat, but I never really had a good grasp of that stuff, and I would like to. I'm hoping that my significant other, who originally was studying to be a neuropharmacologist, can teach me some of that sutff. I have picked up some along the way from reading critiques and so forth, but nothing really substitutes for good old-fashioned formal education.So your SO was was studying to be a neuropharmacologist: sounds like a match made in heaven. < g > So you said "originally"; what did he end up getting into? Is he an MD?
> Sounds like my dad (philosophy prof), only he writes instead of doing research (although there's a lot of research required for his writings, that's for sure).
who funds philosophy writings; the university itself? (Can't see that coming from Congress)
>
> > Criminology is a good field to go into because congress always throws a lot of money into "fighting crime".
> Heh. My sister has gotten interested in criminology. (She's a film student, an area where I could see her applying what she learns about criminology!)
So you have an artistic sister.
>
> > Yes, I totally agree with your analysis of options (1) and (2) and I would add regarding option (1) that one can still experience horrible boredom even when one is depressed, another major problem with that option.
>
> When I'm depressed I don't enjoy anything. It's not boredom exactly, more just flatness: things don't perk me up, I can't find the silver lining even when there's no cloud.When I'm depressed and I have to do something boring to me, jobwise, for someone else, it increases the depression; I just want to crawl back into bed. I don't mind doing the mindless stuff of running a business for myself; it sort of relaxes me, plus I wrote all my businesss programs which was fun and frustrating. I have to go out and get a book on filemaker, I can't figure out the if____, then_____. I want to say if tax isn't charged, then don't subtract tax from the total but no matter what I try, based on the help they give you in the help section of filemaker, it keeps giving me an error. That's one of the different things about working alone; you can't just turn to someone and have them figure it out for you. That is good in terms of really pushing myself, but bad when I get totally stuck, like now. You can call up these companies, but they charge you like $60 a hour, and I have a hard time justifying this, always thinking, I'll get this. I don't even always buy the books sometimes; I'll just go to Borders with a tablet and "research"!
>> Between MIT and UCSB, I've been so traumatised by math that I don't think I could bear to do it again!
> My problem is I'm just not artistic. I mean, not at all: I'm not good at it, and I don't enjoy it. And anyway, I think I'd hardly be able to do any decent art if I were depressed at the time -- jeez, that's so hard to imagine even.well you could paint figurines, like my SIL. < g > Anway, it's good for artistic people that not everyone is artistic. There is enough competition. Did you start grad school in math at UCSB? What made you choose that school?
>. I'd like some feedback from Lorraine as to what she was talking about, too. Lorraine? You there? :-)
>
> > If there was any way that I could have said it to the person involved without everyones else's .02, and the possibility of a >heated battle, that would have been the decent thing to do.
> Okay, now I'm confused again.
Well, I would have liked to say, in the parnate thread, can't you just get over whatever and answer my questions. The questions don't have to do with personalities. But if I did that, I'd have dozens of people coming in and giving their opinion on whether you should answer someone you don't care for , etc. I know that no one has the obligation to answer a question, but why not, if you have some information that the other person doesn't have? I just wanted the question answered, I didn't want to turn it into a philosophy thread which may end up nasty. Not worth it --I'll ask my pdoc next week.> > I just I feel like I can say anything on this thread because I would assume that most people, even those who started reading it, would have given up following it out of confusion, boredom, whatever. < g >
> Heh. Yeah, I have trouble believing that anybody besides us 3 is really following this thread. It's kinda cool actually.
>
I think so also. And all three of us participate in other threads, so I don't feel guilty. Actually Dr. Bob quoted something I said to Lorraine on this thread; he started his question does anyone want to meet him in London when he was going there, with my comment to Lorraine about what it was actually like when she met someone off the board. It was pretty funny that he did that; so I know at least Dr. Bob scans this thread!How are you doing on your half dose? Isn't it about time for your pdoc to come back? Is your plan eventually to add parnate, or do the TCA and buprenorphine? Or at your most optimistic, the TCA by itself?
>
Shelli
Posted by may_b on August 12, 2001, at 13:10:53
In reply to Re: Stuff » Elizabeth, posted by shelliR on August 12, 2001, at 11:38:39
Hi Elizabeth, ShelliR, Lorraine
> Heh. Yeah, I have trouble believing that anybody besides us 3 is really following this thread. It's kinda cool actually.Well, sorry to intrude, but I am reading this thread, and while I don't get all the references, the discussions re parnate for example, and the fall-out from a lifetime struggle with depression are fascinating and helpful.
For example, I refer to the exchanges on CBT and other therapies, and their limited impact on depression. I have found the talking interventions useful in dealing with behavioural side effects (so to speak) of long term depression, such as self-criticism, self-isolating behaviours, catastrophizing, etc.
Other features have not responded to talking therapies, such as: forgetfulness, confusion, hideous dreams, anxiety, ruminating, attention problems and for me, taste distortions or the loss of taste. These features survive all non-drug interventions.
Question:
Re your exchanges on Parnate dose increases and slow metabolizers. How does one know if they are a slow metabolizer? I have NEVER been able to tolerate a therapeutic dose on anything without getting too sick (headache, somnolence, agitation, nausea with/without vomitting). So maybe going from 10 to 20 mg in one day might have helped cause my hypertensive crisis. Maybe I should have crept up by 5 mg increments once a day - what do you think, Elizabeth?I am really thankful to find this group. You guys are a wealth of helpful info. Love the *tone* of support too. :-)
may_b
Posted by Cam W. on August 13, 2001, at 2:27:00
In reply to Shelli et al, Cam too if you're reading this » shelliR, posted by Elizabeth on August 12, 2001, at 6:02:13
Shelli and Elizabeth - Shelli, you were correct about others things bothing me when I wrote the following post to Sal, but he is pretending to be an expert. He never refutes that claim, except to say that he has taken all of these drugs (hardly an objective opinion), usually in megadoses, and has access to all of the world's medical journals.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010725/msgs/72674.html.
I feel that his statements are tantamount to the Beatles taking LSD to attain nirvana. Sorry, knowledge comes from studying the facts, and knowing how to properly read these facts. That takes training (not necessarily formal training); Sal has never shown anywhere that he has done the work to be able to substantiate his claims. He picks and chooses abstracts that might happen to be on topic. I don't think that he pays attention to the vested interests involved in the writing of the article; nor does he take into account articles with theories contrary to the abstracts he posts; and several other factors that must be kept in mind when making a choice.
Another thing that bothers me, is that Sal expounds the benefits of every drug, as he has taken all of them. If these drugs were so beneficial, why isn't he still taking them? How does he know that a person should take a specific sort of drug? He does this "prescribing", without taking into account the person's medical history (which, I know that I sometimes do and am occasionally left with egg on my face). I try to stick to answering questions which I am comfortable answering and if I make a suggestion of a drug, it is the same suggestion I would give to a doc; and I also say to ask the doc if this would the correct treatment for that person (the doc's patient; our poster).
Many of Sal's pharmaceutical suggestions are based on his limited knowledge of reductionistic neuropharmacology. When I read an article propounding certain neurotransmitters for certain conditions, I must sit back and try to see system, then the whole picture. (ie. seeing side effects as only drug effects, and how these drug effect add to or take away from treatment).
For example, if a person is not sleeping after an adequate trial of olanzapine, and still has residual effects of his/her disorder, you shouldn't say to try risperidone, instead. You look to other modalities that can be used to augment the partial efficacy of the drug that person is already on. Switching meds is by far not the first step in modifying most medication regimens.
I am not saying that subjective experience is not important; it is extremely important, but this type of information should not be given the same level of import, as longterm, naturalistic studies, until they have been shown that subjective experience can be incorporated into the theory. This is done through more scientific research, where the "subjective opinion" can be integrated into what we know on whatever disorder we are taking about, or not; thus changing (improving?) our knowledge of the disorder.
I do believe that Sal has found a place to vicariously act out his dream of being his father (a physician). He goes too far sometimes (ie the "suicide"-IM me" post. Those who have the knowledge, must read Sal's posts, to make sure that "no harm is being done." You cannot ignore Sal's posts, as you ignore a troll. This does lead to the question of what type of answers is Sal capable of giving, that will, or may not, lead to harm. The incident which scared me most was when Sal told a person with schizophrenia to stop his risperidone cold turkey, and that there would be no problems (James called him on that on).
I don't mind Sal sharing his experiences, but prescribing is beyond his and my training, especially in this environment. Shelli, I was taking it as a personal affront to the 22 years I have been learning this stuff. If he thinks that posting abstracts and links gives him knowledge into psychopharmacology, he is just taking LSD.
Also Shelli, I did not reply to your post, as I thought that you were not asking for one. I was not ignoring you, honestly.
Take Care; both you and Elizabeth. You're information is given in the context of your learning; and I appreciate that and, to no lesser extent, I appreciate the answers that you two give, especially when I end up learning something that I don't know. We may end up at loggerheads at times, but hey, that's science.
Sincerely - Cam
Posted by shelliR on August 13, 2001, at 11:07:35
In reply to Re: Shelli and Elizabeth, posted by Cam W. on August 13, 2001, at 2:27:00
> Also Shelli, I did not reply to your post, as I thought that you were not asking for one. I was not ignoring you, honestly.
>
> Take Care; both you and Elizabeth. You're information is given in the context of your learning; and I appreciate that and, to no lesser extent, I appreciate the answers that you two give, especially when I end up learning something that I don't know. We may end up at loggerheads at times, but hey, that's science.
>
> Sincerely - CamThanks for replying Cam. I don't quite see things your way with Sal, although I do agree that I don't feel secure with Sal's taking a potential suicide off the board and have written a post to that effect on the other thread, in response to Zo's post.
I think we see different motives in Sal, big heart vs pretending to be doctor. In any case, I think we can just disagree, especially because one's motivation is impossible to objectively measure on the board.I'm glad you were not ignoring me on the parnate thread. Sometimes (Often) I can be oversensitive, something I am personallly working on. Next time I think you're ignoring me, I'll be more direct, CAL, HEY CAL.
Thanks again, and my thoughts are with you during this difficult time.
Shelli
Posted by Cam W. on August 13, 2001, at 11:17:42
In reply to Re: Cam, posted by shelliR on August 13, 2001, at 11:07:35
>I'll be more direct, CAL, HEY CAL.
Posted by shelliR on August 13, 2001, at 11:24:22
In reply to Re: LOL Shelli [np], posted by Cam W. on August 13, 2001, at 11:17:42
> >I'll be more direct, CAL, HEY CAL.
Hey, no wonder you don't answer me!
Someone implanted that in my head from another thread.
Chelli
Posted by susan C on August 13, 2001, at 11:44:22
In reply to Re: Shelli and Elizabeth, posted by Cam W. on August 13, 2001, at 2:27:00
Cam,
I am relatively new to all of the cyberspace and am working, I would like to think diligently, on what, how and why my brain does what it does. I am trying to understand what my pdoc prescribes and why and have been overwhelmed by his knowledge the complexity of everything, and the information on the net.
I think I am intelligent enough that I am skeptical of things and statements that are too good to be true, yet at the same time know I can not learn everything myself.
Having said all that I want to thank you and many others like you for the time you spend on this board answering my and our sometimes vague, confused questions with careful, considerate, intelligent and balanced statements, recommendations and suggestions.
As my new pdoc said, get lots of opinions, lets try to triangulate this problem.
-s> Shelli and Elizabeth - Shelli, you were correct about others things bothing me when I wrote the following post to Sal, but he is pretending to be an expert. He never refutes that claim, except to say that he has taken all of these drugs (hardly an objective opinion), usually in megadoses, and has access to all of the world's medical journals.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010725/msgs/72674.html.
>
> I feel that his statements are tantamount to the Beatles taking LSD to attain nirvana. Sorry, knowledge comes from studying the facts, and knowing how to properly read these facts. That takes training (not necessarily formal training); Sal has never shown anywhere that he has done the work to be able to substantiate his claims. He picks and chooses abstracts that might happen to be on topic. I don't think that he pays attention to the vested interests involved in the writing of the article; nor does he take into account articles with theories contrary to the abstracts he posts; and several other factors that must be kept in mind when making a choice.
>
> Another thing that bothers me, is that Sal expounds the benefits of every drug, as he has taken all of them. If these drugs were so beneficial, why isn't he still taking them? How does he know that a person should take a specific sort of drug? He does this "prescribing", without taking into account the person's medical history (which, I know that I sometimes do and am occasionally left with egg on my face). I try to stick to answering questions which I am comfortable answering and if I make a suggestion of a drug, it is the same suggestion I would give to a doc; and I also say to ask the doc if this would the correct treatment for that person (the doc's patient; our poster).
>
> Many of Sal's pharmaceutical suggestions are based on his limited knowledge of reductionistic neuropharmacology. When I read an article propounding certain neurotransmitters for certain conditions, I must sit back and try to see system, then the whole picture. (ie. seeing side effects as only drug effects, and how these drug effect add to or take away from treatment).
>
> For example, if a person is not sleeping after an adequate trial of olanzapine, and still has residual effects of his/her disorder, you shouldn't say to try risperidone, instead. You look to other modalities that can be used to augment the partial efficacy of the drug that person is already on. Switching meds is by far not the first step in modifying most medication regimens.
>
> I am not saying that subjective experience is not important; it is extremely important, but this type of information should not be given the same level of import, as longterm, naturalistic studies, until they have been shown that subjective experience can be incorporated into the theory. This is done through more scientific research, where the "subjective opinion" can be integrated into what we know on whatever disorder we are taking about, or not; thus changing (improving?) our knowledge of the disorder.
>
> I do believe that Sal has found a place to vicariously act out his dream of being his father (a physician). He goes too far sometimes (ie the "suicide"-IM me" post. Those who have the knowledge, must read Sal's posts, to make sure that "no harm is being done." You cannot ignore Sal's posts, as you ignore a troll. This does lead to the question of what type of answers is Sal capable of giving, that will, or may not, lead to harm. The incident which scared me most was when Sal told a person with schizophrenia to stop his risperidone cold turkey, and that there would be no problems (James called him on that on).
>
> I don't mind Sal sharing his experiences, but prescribing is beyond his and my training, especially in this environment. Shelli, I was taking it as a personal affront to the 22 years I have been learning this stuff. If he thinks that posting abstracts and links gives him knowledge into psychopharmacology, he is just taking LSD.
>
> Also Shelli, I did not reply to your post, as I thought that you were not asking for one. I was not ignoring you, honestly.
>
> Take Care; both you and Elizabeth. You're information is given in the context of your learning; and I appreciate that and, to no lesser extent, I appreciate the answers that you two give, especially when I end up learning something that I don't know. We may end up at loggerheads at times, but hey, that's science.
>
> Sincerely - Cam
Posted by Cam W. on August 14, 2001, at 3:10:57
In reply to Cam, posted by susan C on August 13, 2001, at 11:44:22
:-)
Posted by shelliR on August 14, 2001, at 17:03:57
In reply to Shelli et al, Cam too if you're reading this » shelliR, posted by Elizabeth on August 12, 2001, at 6:02:13
I'm having such a hard time on parnate; don't know if I should just give up or stay the course. I think I'll present this question to the general board population, e.g. has anyone felt awful on parnate and then went on to have a successful run on it. I am tired and sick in my stomach at 15 mg. Can't seem to get past 10mg. I figuring this is not a good thing. Pdoc is out of town, but pdocs anyway generally want you to to hang in there and keep trying on a med until you're just about dead. (I mean they're not the one's feeling crummy). I really was optimistic about parnate, after Lorraine's success. Lorraine, I would guess, is away doing life right now, maybe a long weekend. I hope so.
Hope you are doing okay also, Elizabeth, with your half dose. Talk to you later, I hope I hope I hope. < g >
Shelli
Posted by Seamus2 on August 14, 2001, at 21:36:18
In reply to Yea, where are you guys, did you run off together? » Elizabeth, posted by shelliR on August 14, 2001, at 17:03:57
> ...I am tired and sick in my stomach at 15 mg. Can't seem to get past 10mg. ...< <
Couple Parnate tips:
Easy on the coffee if you take it first thing in the morning! It potentiates caffeine like crazy. I think that's where the queasy stomach is coming from. Try eating something too.
The fatigue goes away after a few weeks in my experience.
Try 10 mgs TID at 4 hour intervals.
Posted by shelliR on August 15, 2001, at 9:57:48
In reply to Re: Yea, where are you guys, did you run off together?, posted by Seamus2 on August 14, 2001, at 21:36:18
> > ...I am tired and sick in my stomach at 15 mg. Can't seem to get past 10mg. ...< <
>
> Couple Parnate tips:
>
> Easy on the coffee if you take it first thing in the morning! It potentiates caffeine like crazy. I think that's where the queasy stomach is coming from. Try eating something too.
>
> The fatigue goes away after a few weeks in my experience.
>
> Try 10 mgs TID at 4 hour intervals.
Seamus,Thanks for the feedback, but I'm not even able to take 10mg then 5mg at a 4 hour interval. without feeling sick and sleeping all day. And I only drink decaf coffee -strong, so it does have a little caffeine in it but, not much. I think I'm going to throw in the towel, considering I've never adapted to any other AD before after a bad start. And with all the side effects, I feel nothing that is indicating that my depression is being touched. This drug trial thing is near impossible when you're working.
Shelli
Posted by Elizabeth on August 15, 2001, at 17:38:51
In reply to Re: Stuff » Elizabeth, posted by shelliR on August 12, 2001, at 11:38:39
> > Maybe. How much hydrocodone do you take for a migraine?
>
> generally about 11.25mg in addition to the 20 oyx a day.1 1/2 Vicodin ES?
> ... I don't think that the parnate is touching me yet; it's only been five days and today I'll go up to 20mg.
That sounds like a plan. I wouldn't expect only 10 mg to have a noticeable effect.
> When I have two periods in a month, then I have more PMS and more depression.
I take it they're irregular? (Oxycodone may make them less frequent, BTW.)
> So your SO was was studying to be a neuropharmacologist: sounds like a match made in heaven. < g > So you said "originally"; what did he end up getting into? Is he an MD?
Nope, a software engineer. < g >
> who funds philosophy writings; the university itself? (Can't see that coming from Congress)
He's a professor. He gets paid a certain amount annually by the U., teaches one or two courses, and writes a lot.
> So you have an artistic sister.
I wouldn't say she's artistic, really. She's very goal-oriented; she knows what she wants to do and she does it.
> I don't even always buy the books sometimes; I'll just go to Borders with a tablet and "research"!
I've used the Longwood Coop (HMS bookstore) this way. < g > The Coops (Harvard, MIT, HMS, HLS, HBS, ...?) are run by Barnes & Noble now, so the layout is similar. I think those bookstore-cum-cafe places let people use them as libraries because they figure it will keep them there longer and they'll be more likely to buy something.
> Did you start grad school in math at UCSB? What made you choose that school?
Various things. I knew a couple people there already, and at the time I *really* wanted to go to CA.
> I think so also. And all three of us participate in other threads, so I don't feel guilty.
Hmm, we do seem to have some lurkers.
> Actually Dr. Bob quoted something I said to Lorraine on this thread; he started his question does anyone want to meet him in London when he was going there, with my comment to Lorraine about what it was actually like when she met someone off the board.
That's on way in which working in academia is so fun: going to conferences in exotic places (okay, London isn't *that* exotic, but it's not Chicago!). And yes, Dr. Bob does read all the threads; how would he moderate, otherwise?
> How are you doing on your half dose? Isn't it about time for your pdoc to come back?
I'm doing okay (back up to 225 mg now). My pdoc is back, I have an appt for next Tuesday.
> Is your plan eventually to add parnate, or do the TCA and buprenorphine? Or at your most optimistic, the TCA by itself?
In order of preference:
1. desipramine + buprenorphine
2. desipramine + Parnate
3. desipramine + Parnate + buprenorphine-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on August 15, 2001, at 17:46:47
In reply to Re: Stuff -- Elizabeth et al, posted by may_b on August 12, 2001, at 13:10:53
Welcome, may_b. Flattered to see that someone else is interested in our chit-chat. < g > (I don't get all the references either, BTW.)
> Other features have not responded to talking therapies, such as: forgetfulness, confusion, hideous dreams, anxiety, ruminating, attention problems and for me, taste distortions or the loss of taste. These features survive all non-drug interventions.
You have weird dreams too? (MAOIs will most likely get rid of that symptom.)
> Re your exchanges on Parnate dose increases and slow metabolizers.
It's important to note that people who metabolise drugs abnormally (too slow or too fast) don't necessarily have the problem with all or even most drugs (unless they have liver disease or something).
> How does one know if they are a slow metabolizer?
Serum level monitoring, or a specific test for deficiency of a particular enzyme.
> Maybe I should have crept up by 5 mg increments once a day - what do you think, Elizabeth?
I don't think that an extreme reaction necessarily means you're not metabolising the drug adequately. But start low & go slow is always a good rule.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on August 15, 2001, at 18:02:02
In reply to Re: Shelli and Elizabeth, posted by Cam W. on August 13, 2001, at 2:27:00
> He never refutes that claim, except to say that he has taken all of these drugs (hardly an objective opinion), usually in megadoses, and has access to all of the world's medical journals.
As I'm sure we all realise, "access" doesn't imply reading and understanding.
> I feel that his statements are tantamount to the Beatles taking LSD to attain nirvana.
Umm...this was before my time. ?
> For example, if a person is not sleeping after an adequate trial of olanzapine, ...
I think you're stretching it here. :-)
> Switching meds is by far not the first step in modifying most medication regimens.
I think it depends on the situation.
> I am not saying that subjective experience is not important; it is extremely important, but this type of information should not be given the same level of import, as longterm, naturalistic studies, until they have been shown that subjective experience can be incorporated into the theory.
On the other hand, theories that ignore subjective experience (of the patient, that is) aren't necessarily so meaningful either. I think that objective studies aren't always sufficient (even when subjective evaluations contribute to the results -- e.g., by the use of pseudo-objective rating scales).
> You cannot ignore Sal's posts, as you ignore a troll.
That's a good point.
> The incident which scared me most was when Sal told a person with schizophrenia to stop his risperidone cold turkey, and that there would be no problems (James called him on that on).
I missed that one, I guess. I agree, though: prescribing (or de-prescribing < g >) is not something that should be going on here.
> Shelli, I was taking it as a personal affront to the 22 years I have been learning this stuff.
I understand. Your knowledge includes knowledge of your limitations; a person without such knowledge might be unaware of his limitations.
> If he thinks that posting abstracts and links gives him knowledge into psychopharmacology, he is just taking LSD.
This is where you lose me. < g >
> We may end up at loggerheads at times, but hey, that's science.
It sure is.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on August 15, 2001, at 18:07:14
In reply to Yea, where are you guys, did you run off together? » Elizabeth, posted by shelliR on August 14, 2001, at 17:03:57
Hi Shelli. I didn't run off with anyone, although I might have run off by myself.
> I'm having such a hard time on parnate; don't know if I should just give up or stay the course. I think I'll present this question to the general board population, e.g. has anyone felt awful on parnate and then went on to have a successful run on it.
Sure, I had spontaneous hypertension when I first started taking it. Eventually I figured out that I needed to take it in divided doses, and then things began to look up. I'm really sorry to hear you're having such a hard time. Maybe you could stay on 10 mg a while longer? I'm not sure what else to suggest (other than adding stuff to combat the side effects, which can be a steep slippery slope).
> Pdoc is out of town, but pdocs anyway generally want you to to hang in there and keep trying on a med until you're just about dead.
And what is it with that August vacation thing? < g >
> Lorraine, I would guess, is away doing life right now, maybe a long weekend. I hope so.
Me too.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on August 15, 2001, at 18:10:27
In reply to Re: Yea, where are you guys, did you run off together? » Seamus2, posted by shelliR on August 15, 2001, at 9:57:48
Shelli,
Seamus gives good advise. I think you should listen (just MHO).
> And I only drink decaf coffee -strong, so it does have a little caffeine in it but, not much.
I thought I heard somewhere that all decaf has a little caffeine in it.
> I think I'm going to throw in the towel, considering I've never adapted to any other AD before after a bad start.
For everything there is a first time. The pessimism might be the depression talking, at least in part: don't listen.
-elizabeth
Posted by Cam W. on August 15, 2001, at 19:24:14
In reply to that other thread » Cam W., posted by Elizabeth on August 15, 2001, at 18:02:02
Elizabeth - • I believe that a lot of my tirade against Sal is just me refocusing the anger (fear?) that I have been experiencing, lately. I have said my piece (peace?) and will leave Sal alone, from now on (except to correct obvious mistakes, or to add more information). I'm sure he is a nice, compassionate guy, who just wants to help people. Hey, you can't knock a guy for that!
•I hope that you don't mind, but I will answer or explain under your comments.
> > He never refutes that claim, except to say that he has taken all of these drugs (hardly an objective opinion), usually in megadoses, and has access to all of the world's medical journals.
>
> As I'm sure we all realise, "access" doesn't imply reading and understanding.
>
•I am not sure that all of the posters and lurkers would understand the implications.
>
> > I feel that his statements are tantamount to the Beatles taking LSD to attain nirvana.
>
> Umm...this was before my time. ?
>
• The Beatles went to India(?) to learn from a yogi about life and beyond when they were heavy into LSD. They thought that taking LSD would be a shortcut to nirvana. They found out it wasn't, especially when the yogi tried to sleep with one of the girls that were brought along. In the same light,just having access to all the medical journals in the world does not make one an expert in the field. I was trying to use an analogy, but I still suck when it comes to writing clearly.
>
> > For example, if a person is not sleeping after an adequate trial of olanzapine, ...
>
> I think you're stretching it here. :-)
>
• Yeah, I'll give you that one; it was off the top of my head. ;^/
>
> > Switching meds is by far not the first step in modifying most medication regimens.
>
> I think it depends on the situation.
>
• I guess that I should have added, "when a psychotropic medication has shown some efficacy", but as a rule, their are no rules, as you state.
>
> > I am not saying that subjective experience is not important; it is extremely important, but this type of information should not be given the same level of import, as longterm, naturalistic studies, until they have been shown that subjective experience can be incorporated into the theory.
>
> On the other hand, theories that ignore subjective experience (of the patient, that is) aren't necessarily so meaningful either. I think that objective studies aren't always sufficient (even when subjective evaluations contribute to the results -- e.g., by the use of pseudo-objective rating scales).
>
• Subjective experience leads to the objective theory which can be studied using scientific method. I think that you need, as a good base, the objective theory (with it's corresponding studies showing proof), but that base needs to be malleable, so that subjective experience from post-marketing surveillance can be integrated into the theory, when the subjective experience is proven to exist. The delayed weight gain with Paxil or the increase in non-insulin-dependent diabetes with Clozaril or Zyprexa users are examples of subjective experiences that were pooh-poohed because there was no objective information in the literature. In other words, you are right, objective theory is only as good as the studies that confirm it; subjectiveness will always be needed. The posts we answer here are of the subjective nature, where we have to be careful not to read into the case, something that isn't there (hard to do sometimes).
>
> > You cannot ignore Sal's posts, as you ignore a troll.
>
> That's a good point.
>
> > The incident which scared me most was when Sal told a person with schizophrenia to stop his risperidone cold turkey, and that there would be no problems (James called him on that on).
>
> I missed that one, I guess. I agree, though: prescribing (or de-prescribing < g >) is not something that should be going on here.
>
> > Shelli, I was taking it as a personal affront to the 22 years I have been learning this stuff.
>
> I understand. Your knowledge includes knowledge of your limitations; a person without such knowledge might be unaware of his limitations.
>
• I shouldn't take his advice as a personal affront, though. He is not crowding my space or anything. I don't feel that I need to mentor him, either. I guess the best bet is to monitor his posts. He will learn what to say, and not to say, as time goes by.
>
> > If he thinks that posting abstracts and links gives him knowledge into psychopharmacology, he is just taking LSD.
>
> This is where you lose me. < g >
>
• I was alluding to the analogy of the Beatles, where knowledge and insight come only from hard work, and a lot of reading for understanding.
>
> > We may end up at loggerheads at times, but hey, that's science.
>
> It sure is.
>
• Thanks for your comments, Elizabeth.• Sincerely, Cam
Posted by Lorraine on August 16, 2001, at 23:25:22
In reply to Re: Update » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on August 11, 2001, at 13:06:14
elizabeth, shelli:
I was in North Carolina for a couple of days with my daughter. I just returned this afternoon and will try to catch up on the posting. I can't really say how I'm doing exactly. It's not completely clear to me. For one thing, I am pretty much done with hyperventilating. It seems to have gone away and I don't know if this is b/c I quit the estrogen cold turkey (on the theory that estrogen dominance may have been causing the problem) or if this is Parnate. I was taking 5mg Parnate 2x day and 300 Neurontin 3x day. Then I found that the sleep wasn't so great and my pdoc suggested increasing the Neurontin at bedtime. So I increased my nightly dose to 500 then 600 mg, but found myself groggy in the morning--which led me to drop my am dose of Neurontin. Then I found I was getting groggy in the afternoon as well so I dropped the Neurontin in the afternoon also. It's only been 2 days of this adjustment and I'm jet lagged major today. Time will tell. Seems odd to me though that the stimulant effect of the Parnate seems to be diminishing.
Shelli: I can see you've been through the wringer on this. I think it's terribly difficult to work and do drug trials. I also sympathize with you about lousey drug starts and how the pdocs would like for you to stay on the trial way beyond the normal limits of endurance. Too bad your pdoc is out of town and can't help you think it through.
responding to Elizabeth 8/11 post:
> (re Recovery Inc.)
> But it's a self-help group, there isn't a psychologist or anyone like that involved?Correct and the last one I attended impressed upon me the importance of the participants in the group on its value (little value in that last one).
> > > Yes; I was very into CBT for a while. I was convinced by the research that it was superior to other types of psychotherapy and that I needed to try it. And maybe it was a good idea to try, but in the end it didn't do much good for my depression.
Sounds like a lot of drugs I've tried:-). Seriously, I suspect it's like a lot of the non-med models, it works for some of the people some of the time. You know, like meditation works for some people and breathing exercises work for some people. I have no idea about the strength of the claim that thoughts are responsible for emotions or emotions are responsible for thoughts. How can we possibly know any of this? We are only an N of 1, but it's the 1 that matters most to us:-) I think the "experiments" using control groups with this or other talk therapy are just not useful. It either works for the individual or not.
> > >I did learn some tricks that have helped a lot with the panic attacks.
Do those techniques still work for you? Just curious. I've done the breathing stuff and it works for about 15 minutes.
> > > I do think that there are the physical and the mental aspects. Now, when physical is the only issue, I wouldn't expect it to be of too much help. But lots of times, both mental and physical is involved.
>
> What do you mean by all this? It's a little confusing to me.What i mean is that I believe that there is sometimes just a mental component, sometimes just a physical component and sometimes both. Take Shelli and me, for instance, we both have had substantial child hood issue to sort through. In my case, once I had "finished" my therapy and felt these childhood issues were ironed out, I was left with a depression that was not responsive to further talk. I needed the talk therapy, but I also needed meds. The need for meds, therapy or both varies by the individual I think.
> > Turns out there are people who are insensitive to side effects also--that might be you?
>
> Not especially. I notice them, but I tolerate them. It's just stoicism, nothing more.I find I can be stoic about certain side effects, like dry mouth, constipation, mild naseau and so forth, but am intolerant of others--like dramatic weight gain or sexual dysfunction.
[re effexor] > 150 is a reasonable dose, not unusually low. Why did you stop taking it?40 lbs and sexual dysfunction--and marital difficulties associated therewith :-)
[re retrospective mood chart]
> Except for the Word part, I'd like to see that, although charting retrospectively isn't ideal.I agree. But it's actually not so bad. I have the file from my previous pdoc who notes my moods and life events during our visits and then I also was on Effexor for a long time (more than a year)--so we'll see. I have a fairly good memory of how bad things were or weren't and the tracking is just by month so it can be quit useful without requiring the amount of detail that a daily chart does. I'll let you know the results.
>
> > It's one thing to not be interested in hanging out with the other kids; it's another to not fit in and hunger for it. I was the latter. It sounds like you were the former.
>
> Not generally, but when I was depressed I was. I usually (when not depressed) come out right in the middle when I take those tests that are supposed to rate how extroverted or introverted you are. I have friends, I like to party and so forth, but I also need quite a lot of time to myself, and a lot of my interests and hobbies are pretty solitary.Me too actually.
>
> > That is a stroke of luck--genetic luck--to have found been inner directed rather than outer directed. That's great.
>
> How so?I meant that some people are more internally driven while others are more dependent on others for their sense of self. You seemed to fall in the former camp--which is lucky if you were an odd duck of sorts.
> > >I take Klonopin for RBD, and it works great.What's RBD?
> [re rapid onset of effects]
> Parnate has a stimulant-like action that you may notice very shortly after starting it. I think that this should be looked into further; it might be the reason why some people have spontaneous episodes of hypertension on Parnate.Ok--more unusual stuff my pdoc said: He says that hypertensive epiosodes (not hypertension) is not common among people who are down-regulated, but are instead more common among people who are up-regulated (over-stimulated). He also says to try small amounts of the forbidden food at home with the antidote handy to see how I'll do with them. I'm fine with cheddar and jack cheeses so far.
How's your desipramine going, elizabeth? Are you augmenting with anything new?Lorraine
Posted by Lorraine on August 16, 2001, at 23:54:46
In reply to Re: Update Lorainne, Elizabeth, et. al., posted by shelliR on August 11, 2001, at 19:42:11
Shelli:
I finished the Magic Daughter while I was away this weekend. I thought it was a great book. It did not overly dramatize the condition and I felt as though I understood how having alters or personalities operates. Mainly it seemed like such a job for her to just get her history down right in chronological order given all the memory gaps that she had. Her explanation of the effect the multiple personality disorder had on her--in terms of friends, relatives and so forth was distressing. Not an easy row to hoe.
I would love to see your website with your work sometime. I am curious about it and I know how important it is to you. My email address is [email protected]
[re therapist attachment]but that thing that kids do "look at me"; Mommy listen to me.
After reading the book, it seemed that she was just desperate to have someone she could trust listen to her story--the need to tell the story and have it validated was I'm sure an over-powering compulsion. Is this closer to the mark?
> > >I am one of about three or four people who are well known and highly respected for this type of work in the fairly large area that is my client base. In an area of mostly attorneys, government, journalists, research (NIH), consulting, I get to be the one of the best of a few people who are well known with my style. So I guess that is the way that I kind of get to be in the center; although I had no idea that it was going to happen that way. It was a gift that came out of much turmoil in my life.It's great when these things just happen of their own accord. In your case as the fall-out of a natural creative urge for expression.
> > >I was unable to work. I had planned to become a clinical psychologist, but wasn't together enough (I knew that, but even so got a masters), so this came out of going back to take a couple of art classes at my therapist's insistance at the time that I create some structure in my life. I now have absolutely no desire to be a therapist.
The same therapist you are seeing now? Mine is pushing me to write. I do have one published poem and it is about her:-)
> > > Well maybe I'd feel less shame if I had *chosen* not to have children. Anyway, my therapist and I do work on that shame part, under the category of "shame of my earlier adulthood" ,different from "childhood shame" :-)"shame of my earlier adulthood", that's unfortunate. Sometimes it seems that there's enough shame in childhood to last a lifetime, don't you think?
> > >Today I got my period for the second time in three weeks, so that's why this has been such a hard time. This is the third day I've felt really sick, although for most of today I was okay, fell asleep and then woke up very sick in my stomach again, but at least without the migraine.It is so hard to tell what is causing what during these drug trials, isn't it? Are these confounding, compounding or primary variables?
>
> > > You sound like you have a really good doctor; I can't remember why you were thinking of changing.B/c I was feeling hopeless and painting with a broad black brush.
Just back today from North Carolina. Tomorrow I'll catch the other posts. Look forward to seeing your site.Lorraine
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