![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1129 to 1153 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by Elizabeth on June 27, 2001, at 9:36:57
In reply to Re: Buspar - is it really helpful for anxiety? » Lynnae, posted by Lynnae on June 27, 2001, at 7:34:41
Lynnae,
Some people who have panic disorder also experience milder panic-like symptoms all the time, as you describe. If I were in your situation, I'd want to see an internist/GP to make sure that the autonomic symptoms (jittery or revved-up feelings, tightness in chest, difficulty breathing, etc.) were not due to some sort of cardiovascular or pulmonary problem. Having ruled that stuff out, my first choice for a medication (well, second choice, assuming benzodiazepines hadn't worked) would be a beta blocker like Inderal (propranolol). Since you have thes symptoms constantly, a longer-acting beta blocker might be preferable (propranolol only works for about 4 hours -- there is a sustained-release formulation, Inderal LA, but it's rather expensive). Also, cardioselective beta blockers (e.g., atenolol) don't work very well for that kind of stuff. Beta blockers can make asthma and some kinds of cardiac arrhythmias worse, so if you turn out to have one of those conditions then you need to get it treated appropriately.
I hope the exercise helps you (it almost certainly won't hurt!). I guess I was pretty lucky that I had such an easy time losing all the weight (upwards of 50 lbs) that I gained when I was taking Nardil (although I don't recommend my method -- "the depression diet").
-elizabeth
Posted by Lorraine on June 27, 2001, at 19:12:02
In reply to Re: Buspar - is it really helpful for anxiety? » Lynnae, posted by Elizabeth on June 27, 2001, at 9:36:57
>Having ruled that stuff out, my first choice for a medication (well, second choice, assuming benzodiazepines hadn't worked) would be a beta blocker like Inderal (propranolol).
Do you mean pindolol?
Posted by Elizabeth on June 27, 2001, at 23:28:00
In reply to Re: Buspar - is it really helpful for anxiety? » Elizabeth, posted by Lorraine on June 27, 2001, at 19:12:02
> >Having ruled that stuff out, my first choice for a medication (well, second choice, assuming benzodiazepines hadn't worked) would be a beta blocker like Inderal (propranolol).
>
> Do you mean pindolol?No, i mean propranolol. Pindolol is a rather quirky beta-blocker, and my experience attempting to use it for autonomic anxiety has been mediocre (although it can have some impressive antidepressant-augmenting effects for some people -- but only with serotonergic antidepressants, not with Wellbutrin, desipramine, etc.).
-elizabeth
Posted by Lynnae on June 28, 2001, at 7:43:31
In reply to Re: beta blockers » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on June 27, 2001, at 23:28:00
> > >Having ruled that stuff out, my first choice for a medication (well, second choice, assuming benzodiazepines hadn't worked) would be a beta blocker like Inderal (propranolol).
> >
> > Do you mean pindolol?
>
> No, i mean propranolol. Pindolol is a rather quirky beta-blocker, and my experience attempting to use it for autonomic anxiety has been mediocre (although it can have some impressive antidepressant-augmenting effects for some people -- but only with serotonergic antidepressants, not with Wellbutrin, desipramine, etc.).
>
> -elizabeth
Elizabeth,
I am impressed by your wide knowledge of medications. It is most helpful. I was just wondering if you are a nurse or something like that? I didn't even realize there were so many drugs out there for these issues! It's almost overwhelming when you are looking down the road for potential treatment, isn't it? A lot of hit and miss it seems. I hope you have a great day --thanks again to all who have posted in response to my initial email! :)
Posted by Elizabeth on June 28, 2001, at 21:23:42
In reply to Re: beta blockers -- Elizabeth » Elizabeth, posted by Lynnae on June 28, 2001, at 7:43:31
> I am impressed by your wide knowledge of medications. It is most helpful. I was just wondering if you are a nurse or something like that?
Thank you. No, I'm not a nurse or "something like that." < g >
> I didn't even realize there were so many drugs out there for these issues! It's almost overwhelming when you are looking down the road for potential treatment, isn't it?
You could look at it that way. Or you could approach it with the attitude that if what you try first doesn't work, there are always alternatives (as Mr. Spock would say).
-elizabeth
Posted by Lynnae on June 29, 2001, at 7:33:34
In reply to Re: beta blockers » Lynnae, posted by Elizabeth on June 28, 2001, at 21:23:42
> > I am impressed by your wide knowledge of medications. It is most helpful. I was just wondering if you are a nurse or something like that?
>
> Thank you. No, I'm not a nurse or "something like that." < g >
>
> > I didn't even realize there were so many drugs out there for these issues! It's almost overwhelming when you are looking down the road for potential treatment, isn't it?
>
> You could look at it that way. Or you could approach it with the attitude that if what you try first doesn't work, there are always alternatives (as Mr. Spock would say).
>
> -elizabeth
Good point! Again, some great advice! :) You are very encouraging. Thanks so much!! :)
Posted by Becca L. on June 29, 2001, at 8:28:04
In reply to Buspar - is it really helpful for anxiety?, posted by Lynnae on June 25, 2001, at 8:42:22
lynnae,
i'd have to agree with most of the other people who have commented on this--buspar is terrible. for me it wasn't so much a matter of unbearable side effects (though it did make me nauseated) as its utter lack of efficacy, even after several weeks; this was just so frustrating. my anxiety and fear of panic attacks felt crippling to me in my daily life, and i felt like they weren't being taken seriously at all by my doctor; he seemed to have put me on something that may as well have been a sugar pill because he didn't want to deal with the hassle of monitoring a patient on a "controlled substance" (i.e., a benzodiazepene tranqulizer).if ativan hasn't been especially helpful, there are many other drugs in the same family (benzodiazepenes) that you could try. i have been taking klonopin (the generic name is clonazepam) 3x daily for the past 2 years, and it has kept my panic attacks in check very well. just gives me the security to see my friends, go to work, talk to people, sleep, etc. i think in fact that klonopin is the most frequently prescribed medication for panic disorder. i think it makes a big difference, though, whether you take it on an 'as needed' basis or regularly. 'as needed' seems to work better for generalized anxiety, regular dosing better for panic disorder.
anyway, from my own experience i'd have to say that buspar is one of the most bizarrely useless anti-anxiety drugs out there. i have no idea what it's still doing on the market. try another benzodiazepene instead. good luck!
Posted by jip on June 29, 2001, at 11:22:06
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? » AnitaThib, posted by dugbet on June 20, 2001, at 14:43:57
I .
>
>
I have been taking effexor for awhile now. Depression is under control. Still have some fatigue but nothing like earlier. I reduced wthe dosage and got relief from fatigue issues. What I don't like is the total loss of libido with this medication. I have heard that wellbutrin doesn't have thisw side affect...please give me some feedback.
Posted by chiaratara on June 30, 2001, at 1:56:23
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jip on June 29, 2001, at 11:22:06
I have had luck with effexor. i started with low doses of paxil and my doctor added effexor. i take 75 a day. the loss of libido is a setback, but so is depression.
i have found that my libido is affected however, once into the act, things respond a bit slower, but they do respond (I am a female.)
as for wellbutrin...
i tried that before effexor, and i found that i got aggressive and agitated. i was a bit more energized, but i would become irritated very easily. i didn't think it was worth it.you could try the wellbutrin with the effexor. the two might balance each other out. my doctor was up to trying to make a anti-depressant cocktail that really worked. i think i tried everything.
i have found that my libido can be uncovered, it just takes a little more effort. it is hard to get the fire started, and it may take a bit more initiation on your part, but once it is lit, you will be cooking. heh.
>
>
> I have been taking effexor for awhile now. Depression is under control. Still have some fatigue but nothing like earlier. I reduced wthe dosage and got relief from fatigue issues. What I don't like is the total loss of libido with this medication. I have heard that wellbutrin doesn't have thisw side affect...please give me some feedback.
Posted by jotho on June 30, 2001, at 10:30:49
In reply to Re:Side effects of Effexor XR, posted by liz taylor on June 26, 2001, at 14:15:23
> >Have been on Effexor XR for 10 months. Felt better right a way. Started at 34.5 and went to 75 after a week.
> Had a hard time sleeping at first, but changed to taking meds in am, so sleeping better. Did not eat a lot and lost weight at first.
>
> After 5 months depression came back in full, so doc upped does to 150. Now after 5 months on 150 I am in a deep dpression again.
> Not sure what to do. I know doc will want to up does to 300, but by now the side effects are taking their toll.
>
> Side effects: 1) jittery 2) hard to get to sleep unless I have gone without sleep for a long time or take a sleeping pill, but then can hardly wake in the PM.
> 3) very weird, real dreams 4) once I start eating I can hardly quit - gaining weight
>
> I have felt so good on the the Effexor that I'm wondering if I should just go ahead and up does and deal with the increased side effects. Any info you can give would be so appreciated.
> Thank you, Liz
Liz...
I took a 75 mg. capsule of Effexor XR every am since December, 2000. Yes, it took away the depression, but did nothing to help the anhedonia (so basically, if I may, it stopped me from drowning, but left me treading in the cold ocean), I could no longer take the side-effects, which were: inability to sleep (two reasons...a jumping twitch that occured in my legs as i started to rest for sleep, and a racing mind) without 'Ambien', the "heebie-jeebies" every evening, in which every surface of my body alternately began itching, and a decline in memory. I decided to get off Effexor and took my time in doing it, cutting the dosage down every week by approx. 25%. About a week ago I was down to zero pills. However, the side affects are terrible...I still have trouble falling asleep, but the worst is a 'electrical "humming" that goes on in my head...hard to describe. It's like every time i move, and at the end of each breath, I get this feeling of a mild electrical shock courseing through my neck and inside my head.
Has anyone else had this problem? And how long does it take to clear the system of this medication. Please don't tell me it has "hardwired my brain, and that these feelings will continue,...that would truly suck! Any help in this?.....john
Posted by oceanbreeze on June 30, 2001, at 10:46:16
In reply to Re:Side effects of Effexor XR, posted by jotho on June 30, 2001, at 10:30:49
You're not alone with the "brain swooshing" side effect from Effexor. I was also on it for 10 months when it quit working. I went back to the doc and he switched me to Wellbutrin. I didn't tapper off Effexor, just switched. I'm feeling better (happier) on Wellbutrin, but the brain swooshing is horrible....kind of like it takes your brain a few seconds to catch up with every move you make.
> I took a 75 mg. capsule of Effexor XR every am since December, 2000. Yes, it took away the depression, but did nothing to help the anhedonia (so basically, if I may, it stopped me from drowning, but left me treading in the cold ocean), I could no longer take the side-effects, which were: inability to sleep (two reasons...a jumping twitch that occured in my legs as i started to rest for sleep, and a racing mind) without 'Ambien', the "heebie-jeebies" every evening, in which every surface of my body alternately began itching, and a decline in memory. I decided to get off Effexor and took my time in doing it, cutting the dosage down every week by approx. 25%. About a week ago I was down to zero pills. However, the side affects are terrible...I still have trouble falling asleep, but the worst is a 'electrical "humming" that goes on in my head...hard to describe. It's like every time i move, and at the end of each breath, I get this feeling of a mild electrical shock courseing through my neck and inside my head.
> Has anyone else had this problem? And how long does it take to clear the system of this medication. Please don't tell me it has "hardwired my brain, and that these feelings will continue,...that would truly suck! Any help in this?.....john
Posted by Deana on July 3, 2001, at 13:48:21
In reply to Re:Side effects of Effexor XR, posted by oceanbreeze on June 30, 2001, at 10:46:16
I too have just stopped taking Effexor. 75 mg. for 6 months, followed by 1 week of 37.5 mgs.
I have not taken any now for 4 days, but the withdrawl symptoms have me dizzy and confused. I do not want to take it again, but am very concerned as to when this "dizzy, electric, numbing, headachey" feeling will end. Any advice or information would be greatly appreciated. I would especially love to hear from someone who has been off Effexor and has stopped experiencing these withdrawl symptoms- How long did they last?
>
Posted by jotho on July 4, 2001, at 16:56:58
In reply to Re: withdrawal, posted by messica on July 4, 2001, at 16:09:35
I attempted to respond after your post, Deana, but messed up somehow because it's obviously not there. It is just as well because now Messica can read it also.
I assumed that cutting my Effexor dosage by 25% every week would eliminate any withdrawal symptoms. How wrong i was, and my previous post will explain them, but...it is now about ten days since i took any effexor at all, and i can say the side-effects are better...not gone, but better. The "swooshing" has subsided somewhat, though i still have them at times. I have actually slept the last couple of nights without the use of an "Ambien". Odd, though...last night, while on the computer, i had a very intense time with that 'restless leg syndrome"...maybe i ate too late, or ate the wrong things...who knows? The main point is...i think it's getting better.
Now, i also want to mention that i have ordered "Adrafinil" from overseas, and i am going to experiment with it. It is relatively cheap, and has some amazingly positive write-ups about it. Put 'Adrafinil' in your search engine and start reading. The side-effects are virtually non-existent and the benefits are many and amazing. I will post my results with it, positive and/or negative, as soon as they arrive and i begin taking them. I will keep an eye open for your posts...........john
Posted by messica on July 5, 2001, at 7:02:21
In reply to Re: Goofy or Anyone how do you know the mg in EFXR, posted by goofy on March 30, 2001, at 12:02:36
>
> Hi Fish,
> I expected not to be able to function coming off effexor. The side effects I encountered while going off effexor were very mild and I was able to still function. I was a little fuzzy, tired, emotional and I had some achiness and electrical jolts to my body. None of these symptoms were consistant. I would notice them at different times while I was coming off the effexor. I also noticed a positive difference in the way I felt even with these symptoms. Everybody reacts different, but I was able to still function and be productive. Iam now 20 days free and I feel 100% better. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. Good luck.
> goofy
>I'm glad to see that someone had only mild (vs. severe) side effects coming off effexor. Were you on XR? Were you also on anything else, such as neurontin? Please post any thing you did during 'detox' that you feel may have helped.
Thanks and congrats!
m.
Posted by dash05 on July 6, 2001, at 8:15:34
In reply to Side effects and withdrawal, posted by John on April 29, 2000, at 20:57:09
I went to my doctor due to persistant sadness, anger and some suicidal fantasies (didn't tell her about that part!) and she started me on Effexor XR, the pack with the one week on 37 and one on 75. Took my first one last night and I do feel pretty good today, but all the withdrawal horror stories are scaring me. I think I will not take anymore.
Posted by Deana on July 6, 2001, at 10:37:56
In reply to Just started last night, posted by dash05 on July 6, 2001, at 8:15:34
dash05-
I did have good results when I began on the med. also 37.5, upped to 75 mg. I started to feel better after only a week. But I posted because of withdrawl difficulty, which it seems not everyone experiences. If it works for you, do continue! just be aware that there are definite withdrawl symptoms that vary from one person to the next. Would I have still taken it? I think so. I think I did really need it, due to depression and anxiety, which I believe was exacerbated by xtc use. Good luck!- After 6 days without Effexor, I am feeling alot better!
Posted by jotho on July 6, 2001, at 11:47:49
In reply to Re: Just started last night, posted by Deana on July 6, 2001, at 10:37:56
>Dash...if you are feeling better the first day chances are it is your mind feeling some relief because you have started taking something that might very well help you with your problem. Most of the people you read about on this thread are the ones that have felt drastic withdrawal symptoms, but certainly not everyone experiences them. There is no way of telling, of course, until you try the drug...it's a chance you take. I, personally, seem to be fairly sensitive to medication and such, i.e. i usually feel results on the lower end of the dosage scale. I guess that also makes me more prone to the side-effects.
Good luck, and don't judge it till you've given it the alloted time to work, or you are experiencing too many baddies from it. There are other alternatives so keep reading the threads......john
Posted by messica on July 7, 2001, at 18:08:45
In reply to Re: Just started last night, posted by Deana on July 6, 2001, at 10:37:56
> dash05-
> I did have good results when I began on the med. also 37.5, upped to 75 mg. I started to feel better after only a week. But I posted because of withdrawl difficulty, which it seems not everyone experiences. If it works for you, do continue! just be aware that there are definite withdrawl symptoms that vary from one person to the next. Would I have still taken it? I think so. I think I did really need it, due to depression and anxiety, which I believe was exacerbated by xtc use. Good luck!- After 6 days without Effexor, I am feeling alot better!I'm so happy to see someone else has taken xtc and is/was on effexor. I would be REALLY interested to talk to you more about this. I don't think the doctors have a clue as to what x does, especially long term and especially taken in the large quantities I inhaled.
I started to lower my intake of effexor xr a few days ago. I plan to be completely off of it in 3 months. I feel MUCH better already.Dash, it's true that effexor makes you feel better at first. I actually felt like I was really high on serious drugs the first few days. I would advise you to stop now. Try natural stuff: st. johns, yoga, exercise, talking to friends, writing, music, being active, whatever makes you happy. Know that you are not alone.
I agree with Deana, it did make me feel better at first. When you are REALLY low, it can help you get over the hump, but I'm not so sure it's good long term.
So far, I haven't felt any withdrawl going from 150mgs to 75. : )
Posted by Sherylll on July 7, 2001, at 22:21:38
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by stephen william on September 30, 2000, at 0:05:33
Is it better to take Effexor XR in the dday or at night ? I take mine at night but i was wondering if i took it in the day if i would have more energy?
Posted by jotho on July 7, 2001, at 22:56:38
In reply to Effexor Xr day or night ?, posted by Sherylll on July 7, 2001, at 22:21:38
Sheryll...Effexor is a double-edged sword in a way. Many have to take it in the a.m. because taking it at night keeps them too wired to fall asleep. It can also do the opposite. Some people feel extreme fatigue and tiredness during the day after taking an a.m. pill. You kinda have to see what works better for you.
And Dash, just to add...obviously there are different levels and varieties of depression. Aside from acute sadness, another horrific side effect can be the lack of desire to participate in things that once brought happiness, and it's hard to just "do things that make you happy", as Mellica stated, when nothing really makes you happy. She's right about excercise (even if you have to force yourself) 'cause it's proven that a 15-20 minute aerobic workout changes the whole hormonal profile in the body, and can help for sure. And definitely read the postings and look into (meaning: read as much as you can about) alternatives like Tyrosine, phenylalanine, 5htp, st. john's wort, SAMe (really, really expensive) and other stuff. Still, there are many (not me,though) who have been on the zolofts and prozacs and paxils and effexors for a long time, and have been saved a lot of suffering and pain. It's a struggle, but science is getting closer everyday to subdueing or even eliminating the "black dog" so you gotta hang in there.
Posted by Jillybean on July 8, 2001, at 10:14:22
In reply to Re: Goofy or Anyone how do you know the mg in EFXR, posted by goofy on March 30, 2001, at 12:02:36
I am still on effexor (150mg) but occasionally I'll miss a dose here or there. Once I went to see what would happen if I quit taking it, just to see how dependent my body was to it. Here's my (edited) log...
Day 1...feel ok, little queasy, but alright tho
Day 2...still feel ok, queasiness gone, headache, vivid dreams (kind of fun, tho)
Day 3..dizzy, feels like my vision is off, eyes move too slow or something, don't feel as tho I'm connecting, vivid dreams, mild hallucinations at night
Day 4...My mind is not connecting with my body or something. Weepy. Mild hallucinations at night. Vivid and scary dreams. Feel like I'm drunk or something. Afraid of being put in a mental institution. Moody.Well, that's the edited version. Needless to say, I'm back on and now I know how long others will be able to tolerate me if I'm ever stranded on a deserted isle with Gilligan, the Skipper, too, the millionaire, and his wife, the movie star, the professer and Mary Anne.
Posted by Kaysey on July 8, 2001, at 11:24:14
In reply to Re: Goofy or Anyone how do you know the mg in EFXR, posted by Jillybean on July 8, 2001, at 10:14:22
> I am still on effexor (150mg) but occasionally I'll miss a dose here or there. Once I went to see what would happen if I quit taking it, just to see how dependent my body was to it. Here's my (edited) log...
> Day 1...feel ok, little queasy, but alright tho
> Day 2...still feel ok, queasiness gone, headache, vivid dreams (kind of fun, tho)
> Day 3..dizzy, feels like my vision is off, eyes move too slow or something, don't feel as tho I'm connecting, vivid dreams, mild hallucinations at night
> Day 4...My mind is not connecting with my body or something. Weepy. Mild hallucinations at night. Vivid and scary dreams. Feel like I'm drunk or something. Afraid of being put in a mental institution. Moody.
>
> Well, that's the edited version. Needless to say, I'm back on and now I know how long others will be able to tolerate me if I'm ever stranded on a deserted isle with Gilligan, the Skipper, too, the millionaire, and his wife, the movie star, the professer and Mary Anne.A number of years ago I too feared that I would be stranded 'somewhere' (be it Gilligan's Island or Fantasy Island) without meds--first it was with bcps then later prozac/ativan/lopressor. I started a habit whereby I always had a few days doses of my meds with me at all times in my pocketbook (and overnight bag if I was travelling frequently). In fact I just kept the bcps in the pocketbook and took them on schedule so that I would always have them with me. Now that I take Effexor instead of the previously mentioned 'cocktail,' and knowing its short half-life (and the types of withdrawl symptoms you and others have experienced), I make certain I have it with me at all times. This is the only way that I can be sure that I don't experience the quick symptoms that accompany missing a few doses. I know other people probably do the same thing, but it is good to remind folks of this from time to time! Just remember that the meds are there, that they have an expiration time, and that they are sensitive to heat/humidity extremes.
Posted by Marilyn on July 8, 2001, at 20:32:06
In reply to Negative reaction to Effexor? You are NOT alone !, posted by Marilyn on May 30, 2001, at 8:25:48
For anyone who experienced a negative reaction to
Effexor (Venlafaxine), join these groups/boards:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PROZACAWARENESS
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SerotoninAwakenings
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prozactruthLots of info !
All of these groupmembers went through different
bad experiences with SSRI-antidepressants and
SSRIs/SNRIs like Effexor (direct or indirect)
and are from different backgrounds.Important: These boards are all anti-SSRI.
Marilyn
Posted by jotho on July 8, 2001, at 21:20:24
In reply to Re: Negative reaction to Effexor? You are NOT alone !, posted by Marilyn on July 8, 2001, at 20:32:06
Thanks Marilyn...very informative sites. I browsed through many of the postings and was amazed at some of the stories....frightened, actually. Some even brought to mind side effects I had while on effexor (clenched jaw and teeth grinding) that i had forgotten about since. Everyone writing on this board should take a look at those sites.
Posted by MB on July 9, 2001, at 12:36:19
In reply to Re: Goofy or Anyone how do you know the mg in EFXR, posted by Jillybean on July 8, 2001, at 10:14:22
> Day 4...My mind is not connecting with my body or something. Weepy. Mild hallucinations at night. Vivid and scary dreams. Feel like I'm drunk or something. Afraid of being put in a mental institution. Moody.Interesting,
I had a scary experience comming off of Effexor, also. I was lying on the sofa with my eyes closed, when I began vibrating. I began vibrating so fast that it felt like I was out of my body...like I had no body. Then, I heard this sound in the middle of my head that was one of the loudest i've ever heard, it was a "ripping" sound...as if the very fabric of reality was being torn apart. I opened my eyes. I could see, but was paralysed. I could see a tiger pacing back and forth. It was completely invisible but for it's stripes which wrapped around the contour of it's body, delineating it's shape in a style reminiscent of Salvador Dali. The tiger then jumped up onto my back (I was lying on my stomach) and shoved what felt like a foot-long needle right up into my anus. It was only with this severe pain that my paralysis was broken. I was able to take my arm and swat it off of my back at which point it disappeared. It was one of the weirdest things that has ever happened to me. I've had hypnopompic hallucinations before, but this one really took the cake. I told my psychiatrist about it, and he seemed pretty concerned. Actually the first time I had ever seen him so. He told me never to take that medicine again if it could cause such severe alterations in my state of consciousness. I, too, really had to question my grip on reality after my experience with Effexor withdrawal.Also, if it's any consolation, I have gotten pretty "weepy" upon cessation of all the drugs which affect serotonin reuptake (Celexa, Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Luvox and Effexor). You're not alone. I still (eight months after my last dose of any antidepressant) cry at the drop of a hat...especially when watching really cheesy TV shows. It's really embarassing.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.