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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Phil on March 25, 2000, at 7:17:57
In reply to Re: James..Chris A., posted by Phil on March 25, 2000, at 7:09:06
I'm no fan of the pharm industry, either. But, many so called natural practitioners, and I go to some, can suck money out of your life like no pharm industry ever has.
To each his/her own.
Posted by Cam W. on March 25, 2000, at 11:06:04
In reply to Re: ps, posted by Phil on March 25, 2000, at 7:17:57
Joy - Almost everyone has a right to choose there own treatment, but that choice needs to be an informed one. We are all adults, capable of making our own decisions ("most of the time"). Sometimes we do not understand how sick we really are or even that we are sick. This is where medication (conventional or herbal - though less proven) come in.Medication can help someone realize how sick they are when it works. It can uncloud the mind and allow us to see just how wrong our thinking can be at times (eg psychotic delusions, feelings of hopelessness, etc). As has been so eloquently stated on this site,"Medicines put the floor under your feet."
This is when the real healing can begin and psychotherapy (self-induced or with the help of a professional) either resolves the mental problem (eg as in most depressions) or, if the mental disorder is chronic, allows us to deal with it better and more productively (eg as in schizophrenia or bipolar disorder).
Medications alone are not the key to recovery, the are only the 'bandage'. One must also work at helping themselves to live with their afflictions; be they mental or physical (or both). You cannot take a "magic pill" and have all your troubles disappear. The road to recovery or remittance is very hard and one must work very hard to attain the recovery goals that they have set out to achieve.
Unfortunately, we are not scientifically advanced enough to be able to tell you, "Yes, this is the medication you will need to aid in your recovery." Our medicine is still very much 'hit and miss'. All of our medications have inherent problems (side effects, toxic effects, etc.). As my daddy use to say (but in a different context), "You must kiss a lot of frogs before you find your princess" (or prince, as the case may be).
So, one should not totally abandon one proven therapy (eg conventional medication) outright. All therapies must be understood within their context. An informed choice must be made by you and only you, after all options have been considered in a rational way.
Hope this helps - Cam W.
Posted by Linda on March 25, 2000, at 13:59:51
In reply to Re: Celexa Side Effects, posted by Linda on March 22, 2000, at 21:41:19
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Posted by saint james on March 25, 2000, at 14:25:52
In reply to Well put, James, posted by Chris A. on March 24, 2000, at 22:38:27
> I'm planning on keeping a copy of your statement handy for when well meaning people ask why I don't try a "natural remedy." I have been known to remind them that lithium is natural - not that it is effective for me.
> This is the best I've ever seen this put.
>
> Chris A.
>
James here...Well thanks ! What really bothers me is that some people will search for hours for good and bad info on meds, but if it is "natural" no proof is looked for and no questions asked. In general herbs have few side effects because they are dilute and therefor are better suited to lifes minor complaints. Meds tend to be very concentrated, making them very specific and powerful, but more likely to have sideeffects.
I like herbs, I take Ginko as I live up in the mountains and often hike or travel above 8,000 ft.
I've tried several herbs for my allergys but none was strong enough. We all feel better when taking natural things, myself included, but it is important to hold all things we take to a high standard.Joy, this is a place for adult discussion. If you do not agree with a persons points you can disagree w/o making it personal. Most of us learned this in kindergarten; to play well with others.
j
Posted by saint james on March 25, 2000, at 14:33:51
In reply to Unsubscribe, posted by Linda on March 25, 2000, at 13:59:51
> UNSUBSCRIBE
James here....
Linda, you don't subscribe to this, it is not a list serv. If you don't want to read the posts anymore then don't load this web page again !
JAMES
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on March 25, 2000, at 14:42:04
In reply to Re: Decisions - To Joy, posted by Cam W. on March 25, 2000, at 11:06:04
> As my daddy use to say (but in a different context), "You must kiss a lot of frogs before you find your princess" (or prince, as the case may be).
Dear Cam,I know this is a waste of bandwidth, but I had to tell you that I find your daddy's aphorism to be precious.
Also, while we're not on the subject (this doesn't pertain to you), I just want to say that I'm not too crazy about the way the term "homeopathy" is used nowadays. It makes it seem as if there is something intrinsically safe about using a substance derived from a naturally occurring object - that this practice is somehow in concert with nature, and therefore healthier.
This is a bunch of crap.
It is also dangerous.
Perhaps I am unaware of, or don't understand some crucial principles regarding homeopathy. Perhaps there is a definition of the word "homeopathy" other than the one I find in the dictionary.
Semantics aside, what's the difference between injecting synthetic atropine and drinking an herbal tea made from the leaves of a plant named belladonna? Do they not both dilate the pupil and make women beautiful? Are not excessive amounts of both lethal? Do I not just like to read myself talk?
The "homeopathic" remedies I see most often cited are those that are used allopathically.
St. John's Wart and kava kava are not homeopathic remedies. They are allopathic.
----------------------------------------------HOMEOPATHY
American Heritage Dictionary:
ho·me·op·a·thy (hm-p-th)
n.A system for treating disease based on the administration of minute doses of a drug that in massive amounts produces symptoms in healthy individuals similar to those of the disease itself.
-----------------------------------------------
ALLOPATHY
American Heritage Dictionary:
al·lop·a·thy (-lp-th)
n.A method of treating disease with remedies that produce effects different from those caused by the disease itself.
-----------------------------------------------
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 25, 2000, at 14:48:04
In reply to Unsubscribe, posted by Linda on March 25, 2000, at 13:59:51
> UNSUBSCRIBE
The FAQ addresses the question, "How can I stop the notifications I asked for?":
http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/extras.pl
Bob
Posted by saint james on March 25, 2000, at 15:40:21
In reply to Re: Decisions - To Cam and others, posted by Scott L. Schofield on March 25, 2000, at 14:42:04
>
> The "homeopathic" remedies I see most often cited are those that are used allopathically.
>
> St. John's Wart and kava kava are not homeopathic remedies. They are allopathic.
>
>
James here...Here here ! Living in New Mexico, the land of enchantment and the alternative, everyone knows the difference. There have been several clinical trials to test the theory behind homeopathic treatments, i.e the theory of likes, and all of the trials disproved this theory.
j
Posted by Jen Hill on March 27, 2000, at 18:09:48
In reply to Re: Decisions - To Cam and others, posted by saint james on March 25, 2000, at 15:40:21
I'm from New Mexico. Land of entrapment. Home of the flea, land of the plague.
Just wanted to say hi to a fellow New Mexican.Jen
Posted by Sandy on March 27, 2000, at 20:29:44
In reply to Re: Saint James (somewhat off topic), posted by Jen Hill on March 27, 2000, at 18:09:48
> Hi, I've been taking Celexa for only one week now and am almost over the weird side effects, euphoria, insomnia, upset stomach, I am still sweating a lot but can handle that. This is my first time ever using any medication and it' only because I've ran out of options and like most people would like to enjoy life to the fullest without undue sadness or being tired all the time. I'm already feeling better and would like to hear from some of the long time users. Thank-you, SandyI'm from New Mexico. Land of entrapment. Home of the flea, land of the plague.
>
>
> Just wanted to say hi to a fellow New Mexican.
>
> Jen
Posted by Dennis on March 27, 2000, at 21:02:35
In reply to Re: celexa, posted by TOM on March 17, 2000, at 9:47:39
> Started taking Celexa about six weeks ago and was trying to be patient and wait for things to work.
Honestly, the anxiety went away rather quickly and
I was on the 10mg dosage.But the drowsiness is still with me...can't go anywhere without a struggle to get out of the house.
Dragging thru the days is not a pretty prospect.
And supposedly, 4-6 weeks is the time to begin
reaping the bennies...not much so far. My Pdoc
suggested we try this for a year and then get off
the wagon. I don't think I can sleep for a whole
year.One thing I did notice was that I did have a
return of the normal sexual urges after a couple
of weeks (very reduced intensity tho).Debating a switch. Opinions???
Posted by Alex on March 28, 2000, at 4:37:48
In reply to Re: celexa, posted by Dennis on March 27, 2000, at 21:02:54
I have taken celexa for nearly a year and a half. I found it worked really well and made me feel normal again except for the sexual dysfunction which I do find a problem. Initially I had difficulty sleeping, but counteracted this with a sleeping med and had no problems.
I have not felt in a dreamy state or had problems with gagging. When I have forgotten a dose for 2 days I get small brief shocks in the brain, but this passes after a couple of days.
My problem is that I keep on thinking I am cured and stop taking the medication, and after a year of consistent med taking and then reducing, my symptoms return which is very disheartening as i thought I was cured!!!I guess it works only like aspirin...relieves symptoms but doesn't cure the problem.
I don't know what to do now as I don't fancy the option of long term drug taking.I will probably try counselling now, and of corse I should make changes in my life to reduce stress. Sometimes of course it is easier to carry on and take a pill.
I found this drug to be superior to other SSRI's currently around.
Posted by Valley Girl on March 28, 2000, at 8:56:54
In reply to Re: celexa, posted by Alex on March 28, 2000, at 4:37:48
Hi All!
I must say that I have found this site informative and supportive. When depressed, we feel alone, like no one else knows how you feel or think. People tell you to "snap out of it". Don't they know if we could we would.
Medication is not the cure all for depression. I must say I do not notice any difference with my depression and I am taking 20 mgs of Celexa going on a month now. The side effects did not last long, about two weeks. I still am thirsty and I am so tired. But is the tiredness depression? I think so.
Holistic, and traditional treatment has helped me. Loving, gentle, caring people in your life, professionally and personally go a long way with helping get on with your life. Every day is a struggle not to kill myself. I have been like this my whole life. I don't know what it is like to be happy or not miserable, but I get up everyday and go to two jobs. Emotionally crippled, I can't cry or have fun. I am in survival mode. It has to be better than this. I keep hoping. I hope medications can help. >
I have taken celexa for nearly a year and a half. I found it worked really well and made me feel normal again except for the sexual dysfunction which I do find a problem. Initially I had difficulty sleeping, but counteracted this with a sleeping med and had no problems.
> I have not felt in a dreamy state or had problems with gagging. When I have forgotten a dose for 2 days I get small brief shocks in the brain, but this passes after a couple of days.
> My problem is that I keep on thinking I am cured and stop taking the medication, and after a year of consistent med taking and then reducing, my symptoms return which is very disheartening as i thought I was cured!!!I guess it works only like aspirin...relieves symptoms but doesn't cure the problem.
> I don't know what to do now as I don't fancy the option of long term drug taking.
>
> I will probably try counselling now, and of corse I should make changes in my life to reduce stress. Sometimes of course it is easier to carry on and take a pill.
> I found this drug to be superior to other SSRI's currently around.
Posted by Kathy on March 28, 2000, at 14:03:36
In reply to Re: Celexa Side Effects, posted by Marie on March 22, 2000, at 18:13:06
I just went through this entire message board and am on the brink of a panic attack just reading about Celexa. I was just presribed Celexa after having had undesirable effects from Sinequan. I had been taking quite a miniscule dose (80 mg) in comparison to the average adult dosage (350mg). I experienced palpitations (like described in the message board-----"feeling your heart beating (pounding) throughout your entire body at all hours of the night). This was a major deciding factor for a change in med. It is torture and unbearable at 3:00 AM when this is occurring and you want it to just STOP. I also experienced a noticable weight gain, which never was an issue prior to being on Sinequan. Now I have my Dr. swithching me to Celexa and am quite apprehnsive about starting it. I am fearful of another bout with side effects. I also know I can never BE in that despair of depression that I never knew existed until I was THERE. This entire "experimentation" with meds. is totally anxiety provoking. I find it difficult to weigh the positive attributes of the med. with the horrible side-effects (namely, the heart racing/palpitations). As I am writing, I am in the process of weaning myself from the Sinequan. I am to start the Celexa in 2 days and am fearful. Anyone "been there, done that"? Would love to hear some feedback.
Posted by Alex on March 28, 2000, at 14:14:49
In reply to CELEXA or Not to CELEXA...???, posted by Kathy on March 28, 2000, at 14:03:36
Kathy, I found Celexa really good. 40mg made the world look good to live in again. It was okay to get up in the morning and face the day.Little things no longer sent me over the top. I was also able to make use of some cognitive behavioural therapy which also helped, especially thought stopping and reframing negative thoughts ie looking at the glass as though it is half full, not half empty.
Pills can take away the responsibility for making changes to ones own life, it is important to find the right coach to help with this.
Posted by Valley Girl on March 28, 2000, at 14:22:41
In reply to CELEXA or Not to CELEXA...???, posted by Kathy on March 28, 2000, at 14:03:36
> Kathy,
Celexa is supposed to have less side effects than any other kind of this med. My experience was short lived with hearing and feeling my heartbeat through my entire body and upset stomach with dirreaha. I also experienced shoulder and chest pain. It has been a month and I really don't notice much of anthing now. Give it a try. We all know about how you feel. Side effects and all I am going through with taking this med. for awhile. I want to feel better emotionally for once in my life. Try some meditation or breathing exercises. I know, its hard to stay focused when you are terrified. Hang in there!
I just went through this entire message board and am on the brink of a panic attack just reading about Celexa. I was just presribed Celexa after having had undesirable effects from Sinequan. I had been taking quite a miniscule dose (80 mg) in comparison to the average adult dosage (350mg). I experienced palpitations (like described in the message board-----"feeling your heart beating (pounding) throughout your entire body at all hours of the night). This was a major deciding factor for a change in med. It is torture and unbearable at 3:00 AM when this is occurring and you want it to just STOP. I also experienced a noticable weight gain, which never was an issue prior to being on Sinequan. Now I have my Dr. swithching me to Celexa and am quite apprehnsive about starting it. I am fearful of another bout with side effects. I also know I can never BE in that despair of depression that I never knew existed until I was THERE. This entire "experimentation" with meds. is totally anxiety provoking. I find it difficult to weigh the positive attributes of the med. with the horrible side-effects (namely, the heart racing/palpitations). As I am writing, I am in the process of weaning myself from the Sinequan. I am to start the Celexa in 2 days and am fearful. Anyone "been there, done that"? Would love to hear some feedback.
Posted by Rick on March 28, 2000, at 15:39:47
In reply to Celexa Side Effects, posted by Marie on March 19, 2000, at 18:18:55
> I've been taking Celexa now for 12 days and find when I wake in the morning I am very anxious. I take the celexa and it does go away after a few hours. I also experience lack of motivation, and sleepiness. I was on Serzone prior to this and found it worked great up to 2 months ago when I had an excess amount of stress and I guess it just stopped working. I probably should have asked my doctor about increasing the dosage of Serzone instead of him changing me to Celexa. Also, is sexual disfunction a common side effect with Celexa. I've read info that it is with men; how about women? Would love to hear your comments. Thanks.
I've been taking Celexa for 60 days now and I must say it did have an immediate effect on my sexual function, but it only lasted about 4 weeks. During this time I no need or want to do anything. After I had even more stress come into my life the doctor doubled my dose to 40mg/day. I now have an increased desire for sex and my wife and I are getting along just fine. I still have problems with decision making as I tend to say exactly whats on my mind instead of thinking of how it's going to affect everyone before I say it.
Posted by A. on March 28, 2000, at 21:23:57
In reply to Re: Celexa Side Effects , posted by Robyn on March 20, 2000, at 10:53:05
> I have also noticed that I'm clenching my teeth more and for the last week I've been waking up every day with a slight headache.
Wow, I just wanted to comment that I have felt the clenched teeth thing as well. I have associated it with the nausea I feel as well, and the teeth clenching as a way of dealing with it. I don't know, but I catch myself unconciousless clenching my jaw. I wish I could comment on the headache part, but I have woken up with headaches for as long as I can remember, although caffeine and excedrin have been all I've needed for them (perhaps I am dependent on caffeine, as I drink coca cola every day).
I have not noticed any apathy, however. I have actually noticed an interest in talking to others (strange, isn't it, as I am usually quite antisocial). I am also taking Celexa to treat panic disorder. I generally don't see myself as depressed, but I do have panic/anxiety attacks randomly and enough to disrupt my life. I did, however, at one time have clinical depression, so I can relate to how awful depression is, and what a hole it is to be in. At the time, I was prescribed prozac, 20mg per day. I had no side effects with prozac at all, except initially it took longer to be satisfied sexually (although libido was not hurt at all!) I stayed with prozac for about 2 years. I stopped taking it when I felt I didn't need it to maintain mental health. I have rarely fallen into the same kind of depression I felt daily before prozac. I wonder why the doctor prescribes Celexa and not prozac? What are their differences? Anyone?
Posted by A. on March 28, 2000, at 21:30:42
In reply to NO MORE DRUGS, posted by Joy on March 23, 2000, at 21:16:08
> Thanks Cam.
> I am thinking about therapy (doc. wants me to go).
> But the drugs are o-u-t.
>
> In fact tomorrow I'll make an appt.
> This is just too scary..side effects,withdrawl,...
> I feel like a guinie pig.
> I feel like my life isn't my own.
> That the drug is in control..not me.Joy - I just wanted to say if you are going to be off AD completely and try out therapy, and are worried about negative effects of not being on medication, that you might want to try 5-HTP. 5-HTP is the precursor to serotonin (5-HT) and can be bought in a health food place like GNC. It is a nice natural alternative to modern medicine. You might just want to take a small 5-HTP suppliment when beginning therapy to help ease the transition period b/w drug dependency for mood elevation and therapy. Taking 5-HTP while on any SSRI is generally a bad idea, however, as it can create high levels of serotonin in the brain (and serotonin syndrome), so it would be best to take 5-HTP when not taking anything else, generally 100mg 5-HTP per day is enough to really boost your mood. And also take vitamin B-6, as B-6 is a catalyst for the conversion b/w 5-HTP and serotonin.
I hope this helps, as I used to be on prozac for depression and had always worried about having to have drugs for the rest of my life. This turned out not to be true, as I stopped the prozac and was able to maintain a healthy mood in general ever since. Good luck.
Posted by Laura on March 28, 2000, at 23:57:25
In reply to Re: more Celexa sharing ( a thought...), posted by CarolAnn on February 9, 2000, at 9:36:45
I really wish I could figure out what is really going on with me. I was recently diagnosed with Depression (something which I've never had before). I am not going through any serious issues... In fact, my life hasnt been this wonderful in quite a long time. I do not wake up each morning sad/or lack of desire to do things. HOWEVER.. I am experiencing terrible blurry vision, terrible brain fog (I'm having difficulty processing information), and virtually no short term memory/recall. I am also irritible and pissed off most of the time...over silly stuff mostly...something which I've never done in my whole life...
I tried Wellbutrin 300mg daily but it didnt even put a dent in it... As of today, I am trying Celexa but am a bit scared ...most of the bulletins indicated that the people who took Celexa functioned but in some sense,they were a bit numb and out of touch.
I just want to be the way I was just a few months ago... happy go lucky and feeling good. It scares me to think that I'm going to be on drugs..maybe for life.... Does anyone have any positive stories about Celexa? Were you able to get off it after a while?
Posted by Jen Hill on March 29, 2000, at 6:23:35
In reply to Re: Celexa Side Effects , posted by A. on March 28, 2000, at 21:23:57
I've been taking the Celexa about 2 weeks now. The first week I had the really bad teeth clenching and my throat hurt when I woke up in the morning and such. I'm not really noticing any side-effects now except it takes me longer to orgasm. Thankfully, I haven't noticed a lack of interest though. Very much unlike the Zoloft I was on which very much lowered my interest in sex, caused diarrhea and other stomach problems, and wasn't working for my depression.
As for the Celexa helping with depression, it's only been 2 weeks and I notice a significant difference from the Zoloft (I'm also on wellbutrin). People at work, friends, and especially my boyfriend have noticed a big difference. My boyfriend has put up with the brunt of my depression and such for months now and he just keeps telling me "I really like the Celexa!!" Poor thing has had to put up with my hysterics and irrationality and crying at the drop of a pin.
Posted by Cam W. on March 29, 2000, at 7:33:42
In reply to Re: NO MORE DRUGS, posted by A. on March 28, 2000, at 21:30:42
> Joy - I just wanted to say if you are going to be off AD completely and try out therapy, and are worried about negative effects of not being on medication, that you might want to try 5-HTP. 5-HTP is the precursor to serotonin (5-HT) and can be bought in a health food place like GNC. It is a nice natural alternative to modern medicine.A. - Anything you put into your body to alleviate a disease or disorder can be considered a drug (even water). Just because something is natural does not mean that it is safe (eg arsenic). Why would Joy want to use a scientifically unproven therapy when she does not want to use a product that has been shown to alleviate the symptoms of depression in controlled clinical trials? If Joy's depression is not debilitating and she is able to understand the psychotherapy, then a trial of this treatment without medication may be warranted. Antidepressants do no cure depression, they just alleviate the symptoms so that one is able to work through their problems (formally in psychotherapy or informally through types of self talk).
Good luck Joy, and let us know how things are going. - Cam W.
Posted by A. on March 29, 2000, at 17:47:50
In reply to Re: NO MORE DRUGS, posted by Cam W. on March 29, 2000, at 7:33:42
Well 5-HTP is different, being that it naturally is in your body to begin with. This is what your body uses to make serotonin. Suppliments are generally used to boost the amount of serotonin your body normally makes. In small doses it has no side effects, and can make transition b/w prescription drugs and therapy less traumatic. This was only a suggestion, as it has worked for a lot of people. Of course, this is Joy's choice of how she wants to handle it. She just seems apprehensive about going cold turkey. If safety about taking 5-HTP is a concern, there are a lot of websites dedicated to giving detailed information on it.
Posted by Rebecca on March 29, 2000, at 17:56:02
In reply to IM SOOOOO CONFUSED! HELP! , posted by Laura on March 28, 2000, at 23:57:25
Laura--I'll put in a big positive vote for celexa. for me, it's worked wonders. I've been taking it since December, and am still tweaking things, but it's great to be at a state of tweaking rather than wallowing.
I had nausea and insomnia and constipation at first, and they all went away. Then, when the dose was increased to 60 mg at the end of February, the insomnia returned and I lost my appetite and interest in food. (I also stopped taking risperdal at the same time, so I think the risperdal had been counteracting the celexa side effects). I just started seroquel, and am sleeping more and have my appetite back.
Finding the right medication combination is really an individual thing. A. asked why people don't use prozac instead of celexa--I tried prozac, but it gave me horrible anxiety and insomnia (and I'd never had anxiety problems before). For me, it took a lot of frustration and months of side effects coming and going before I found something that works well with bearable side effects. I ran out of patience several times and thought I'd rather be predicably depressed than wonder what medications would make my body and mind do next.
I'm not sure when/if I'll go off the celexa (I've had depression since adolescence)--for now I'm concentrating on getting to a good and stable state and figuring out what I want to do with my life.
Posted by Cam W. on March 29, 2000, at 18:58:07
In reply to Re: Re: NO MORE DRUGS, posted by A. on March 29, 2000, at 17:47:50
A. - Sorry for the knee-jerk reaction, but I deal with natural = safe everyday. I have patients relapse quite often because the 'natural products' "cure", while conventional therapies only alleviate symptoms. That is why I am sensitive when I see natural.Does 5-HTP absorb as a whole molecule or is it broken into component parts and reformed in the bloodstream and is it active or passive transport across the intestinal membrane? Also, it must readily cross the blood brain barrier to elicit an effect or does it act peripherally? I agree that a low dose of a naturally occuring biochemical can help if indeed serotonin is lacking and if you can get it into the brain.
Again, sorry for the lashing out. - Cam W.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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