Posted by muffled on October 3, 2007, at 1:18:50
In reply to Re: many diff. interpretations of integration exist, posted by rskontos on October 2, 2007, at 17:48:40
>rskontos....i think it is wise of you to acknowlege your needs...i personally think it is very important when working on "innerkids" to see T at least once a week.
* I agree w/B2, its been really hard for me cuz my T isn't around so much it seems like. I think our inner kids need consistancy to feel safe. So I think its really slowed down progress, just when we start to get comfortable, there's a break again. But it seems like now that there's more trust, that its easier to get back into it again than B4. And my T is hilarious, its like she just jumps right in,when she gets back, like she never even been gone! Dunno how she does that? I used to that now too. I think that longer term T needs to be considered too, as trust issues do take time...
>(*and just a side note i think one reply used the word splitting...i know exactly what was meant but if you mention that to a T they might think your talking about something else...splitting is a term used for those with BPD. i think it means making things all good or all bad -or something like that..i think the term used when switching to different parts is fractured...BUT thats all just symantics-but i wanted to mention it just in case...cuz i want to make sure you have a T specialized in trauma, not BPD.)
**Yeah, I have seen it both ways. But the more known one would be the BPD splitting thing. I personally mean it as myself being split into somewhat more separated parts. I like that word better, it sounds OK to me. I don't like other words. I will say I have dissociative tendancies, but thats it.
>and of course when we feel better there are a hundred and one reasons why we should NOT go to T.
**Cept my ikid loves to see T!!!
>but you are the best judge of what the future for you may bring. if you feel that things are changing...maybe getting worse or scarier, it is time to start looking for a T.
i always kinda tricked myself when i was feeling good and needed to find a T. i would say, ok, i will look for one but i Don't have to see him right away..i just find the one i like and set up an appt say a month down the line.
then they're there...and once you find one, maybe you will feel really connected to them and that will encourage you to see them enough to form a trust.**LOVED this B2!!!GREAT idea.
>about integration...
i think this is a VERY good discussion topic and i would like to hear as many replies on this as possible.**me too!
i have several times questioned if i feel i NEEDED to integrate. i guess i'm afraid. i mean, they are there for a reason. part of me doesn't want to loose that protection...will i loose it? and sometimes i get sad, what will happen to them?
**EXACTLY. The first time my T said the I-word I became quite verbal bout it. BAD word. She says just 'I-word' now the rare time it comes up, cuz she knows I hate the word. But more recently she has explained that its not so much banishing the others as it is about all working together and helping each other and having some peace.
>i mean i know T tells me they are all part of me and i will not Loose them, but it sometimes feels that way. and i think it scares my little one, though she's not really aware of that concept, but she thinks she's invisible as it is...
**I have had my people 'poof' just dissapear for periods of time, even days at a time. Its a horrible empty feeling.
>and does the DD get worse with time if not integrated?
do you gain more "inner parts' as time goes on (as an adult?) if you don't integrate?**I dunno, but I would guess that if more inner peace could be achieved, then it wouldn't be as much of an issue...
>My T said specifically I needed to integrated all me and it scared me too. I too like my protection. I think maybe that is why she has not called me back. But back to the discussion, the young child in me has more control sometimes than I do, at least I think so.
**OK now THAT would suck, having child in control. Maybe adult you can be more firm with her? About what appropriate and whats not. I had one kid that was SUCH a handful and we argued and fought and had so much misunderstanding, but once I realized that she was INFACT a kid (I STILL find this hard to fathom...)then I responded accordingly, and now she's GREAT! She's a real little helper. Pretty strong willed and has her own opinions, but fun too. So there's a success story for you!
>In times of stress or emotional times, she is the one that comes out, and lately I don't always go away completely sometimes well actually twice, I have remained at a distance, almost like hovering. I think because the stress isn't like what I experienced in childhood. I don't know. I would like to hear more or what others say too. But thanks for you posts and everyones elses. It is getting a tad bit better talking about this. For so long I thought I was so strange that I refused to admit what was going on......
**I LOVE to talk bout it. Its HUGE! There's just not alot of people IRL that you can say this stuff to!
Yeah, there's been a time or two where I have been aware that its not me thats there, but I am still watching, I can remember what went on. There was a time in T that was SO funny cuz T was using an example of dams and water to explain something and the kid loved it! But *I* was trying to be there and listen, and was literally, or so it felt, just elbowing that kid aside to back off! that I was trying to understand what T was telling me, but kid was shoving right back cuz SHE wanted to be there and talk bout water! Its really was kinda funny.>And interesting it is not always sexual abuse, she says that prompts it. I found that interesting. She says that they don't know why it is just that the child or sometimes adult or teenager is in a situation that is just too overwhelming and they split themselves.
**my understanding is that it is a mechanism that learned quite young and can be used when older, but the actual 'splitting' starts young, and then continues as neccessary. Its got something to do with a stage of child development that it is able to occur.
>Which she says I did due to my childhood. She says though I must want to intregrate myself. Maybe that is why she hasn't called back. She doesn't feel I do. And maybe I don't. Today I was thinking I am better today. Why go back and drag up all that bad stuff. I have a good life, good husband. I can heal in this life right, maybe be ok. Maybe I just need a good therapist that I can do more talk therapy, a little something for those rough patches and live at that. Some experts think this is a gift, if I try to think that way maybe it will take some pain away. I don't know anymore. My son gets upset with all the research I am doing, of course he does he wants his mom to be fine as I did.
**I dunno, I think what B2 said bout having a T ready in case things deteriorate is a good idea. I have had time go by where I was very stable, and T was ready to terminate....but then I guess it wasn't time yet.
I think it has been very helpful to me, just to get to know my main people, and to try and better understand where they are comming from.
I used to think, for example, that my main protectors were all bad, but it turns out they not. And I thot my ikid was all good for a bit, but she gets jealous and stuff too. So better understanding has helped all. We have grown to understand that we all just trying to do what we need to do, and I think maybe we are starting to, as a group, to realize its better if we don't fight. And really, there is only one part that I am aware of that seems to be the one thats starts all the trouble. And I guess we gonna have to work on being able or even willing to try and communicate w/her......but mostly we hate her cuz she GROSS. But we supposed to, or the adult, which hates her, is SUPPOSED to take care of her. BUT SHE WON'T AND THATS BAD. So there.
>If you don't think what bold me/quiet me is dissociation what is maybe? I don't know as I thought if I knew I might could have more control. I thought it was a form of MPD and maybe there were more underneath that were not out? I think that because I have lost so much time and have so many memories unavailable. Something else took over while I was on vacation. I thought bold me was just a different more mild version since the danger I was perceiving was not so dangerous. I certainly don't know. I am grasping at straws and my T no word yet.**Ya, its really nice when you finally figger stuff out some. I used to ahve NO clue. It was just 'noise' in my head. But , here's another funny story! When i first met an inside one, my baby, the rest were all SO shocked, they all ran away!!!! OMG, like just GONE! My head was quiet, and it felt so strange. I was just kinda getting used to it and they came back, and I was glad really, cuz its what I am used to.
>She said I didn't have to integrate but not to was costly. But we didn't get into costly. Anyone out there know what she might have meant? I am not sure if she had experience with this but she sounded like.
**I don't understand this either. I find it rather an insult to be honest. Who is to say who is more important? Who am I to shove the others away? My beleif is that as we all calm down and work better together, it will no longer be an issue.
>Integration is a four letter word to me. My therapist doesn't see it as a goal.
Mind you, I'm pretty far down the spectrum. I don't lose time.
Why would I want to be anyone but who I am? And vice versa. After all, stable and enduring ways of perceiving the world is what made me who I am, and me too.
Mutual respect and cooperation is all my therapist asks of me.**GOOD T! :-)
>my diagnosis are so muttled that i feel like a mental illness stew.
a little of everything.** I think with DD's sometimes the DX DO change alot, cuz its hard to pin down..
>i have BP2, but my hypomania is rarely good, usually dysphoric that tends to get a little on the psychotic side. sometimes my mood swings are typical BP and other times they're quick and Very distinctive- once dx as BPD and now realized to be DD switching.
**I have DX BPD cuz I was in hosp for s injury. I mostly don't fit the criteria. I think the only reason I fit any of the criteria is cuz of my ikid, who IS a kid and so behaves like one...can come across as BPD cuz her emotions are not appropriate for this adult body. Adult me is utterly not fitting the BPD profile.
I also am considered GAD. I dunno what else. I have had little contact w/P-docs and don't really want labels. When I last went to p-doc, whoever was there was SMART, and knew exactly why P-doc was asking certain questions, and was very careful to hedge around certain ones...I KNEW a part was messing, but couldn't stop it. Just as well anyhow.>anyway, things have kinda changed for me over the years...but is it that my life is more stable so now i'm noticing them? or is it because i'm aware of what/who they are so i notice more?
**I think I am more aware cuz of my irl kids. I think I was triggered some. It stirred stuff up.
>and i had a major 'breakdown?' a few years ago where EVERYTHING kinda came down the wire at once and illness got severe. So that may be exacerbating things also?**my breakdown was proly 15 yrs B4 I had trouble with evrything going really bad again...
>once i started therapy (because of S. attempt)...That's when i started having flashbacks and memories started coming back and now there's no going back. i feel like i can't hide behind the 'nothing ever happened' anymore.
**:-(
>i feel like even with my (inner's) i function pretty well. i'm not having any job issues (yet) anyway. and i'm able to care for my IRL little one.
So overall, my inner ones aren't currently causing me distress. of course i'm in thearpy once a week also. maybe if i stopped now it would get worse?** I think having T around helps calm my ikids...I think there are people out there that have 'parts' and don't even know it, and mebbe never will. Unless there is alot of dissent btwn parts, or troubles w/time loss etc, then why not live with it I say! Its not a prob unless its causing probs IMHO.
>i do agree with your T in that my 'inner ones' are there for a reason. and they protect me.
i wish she would have explained 'costly'....hmmm makes you wonder.**I have a set of protection too. The kids are just kids. And I wouldn't mind them at all for the most part, but that one damn kid...
>ok, so when we talk about our inner kids can we call them alters? or is that ONly if you switch without memory or knowledge of them?
**I dunno.....I think you can call them what you want, to me, they are just my people...
I am not DID at all, just a little split. Alters to me, refers more to DID. But thats just my way of thinking.>ok...so i found this definition of integration...but i feel like i'm there already...
i accept that part of me IS me...
am i misunderstandin the definition? or is this just a bad definition?
"Integration occurs when I accept a dissociated personality, part, or aspect of myself and bring it into normal awareness. It is not about getting rid of or killing off a part of myself. When I maintain the split and say it is "not me," I am implicitly rejecting that part of myself. Essentially, integration is fully embracing each and every part/aspect of myself.
Full acceptance allows greater self-control and choices. This is true not just for individuals with DID, but for non-DID as well. For example, when I deny, reject or dissociate that I have a problem with binge eating, I am not able to work on the problem. When I admit/accept that I have the problem, I can take action to deal with my feelings and choose new ways to handle the problem. With DID, when I deny/reject a part of myself that wants to cut/hurt me, I can't control that part of myself. When I incorporate that part of myself I gain control and choices."**hmmm, alittle confusing, but OK I guess. I feel like I already there too....but mebbe I never was not 'there', cuz mebbe this refers to DID and not just split a bit like me.
I KNOW I am all me, we all are in this body so OF COURSE its all me. But......sigh....they themselves too...and thats where it gets confusing. And its REALLY hard to connect ikids to me, cuz I have little memory of childhood. Which, from what I gather was just fine.*******************
OH...and i found a word to describe what i'm talking about. my T used the phrase "frozen age states", but i read something and it called it "co-consciousness"**I have heard that from my T too. Bout how a part of you gets stuck at a certain age....but thats all I know bout it.
> I suppose it depends on how you interpret it. If you mean, do you understand intellectually that all of these parts of you exist that's one thing. But if you need to have one part of your consciousness say "Yes, this other part of my consciousness is still me, and I really feel this way." as opposed to "I'm here, and I'm here, and we share." that's an entirely different thing.
**LOL! Good description dinah!
Why would rational me and emotional me want to accept each other as parts of themselves? That doesn't mean Dinah can't accept that both parts are valid layers of consciousness.
In this sense all of me rejects integration. It would be like asking a family to merge into each other. No part would get lost. But no part would retain it's unique individuality.**well said. I agree.
>And sometimes there are extremely varied beliefs about whether or not necessary for DID or DD individuals.
there isn't ONE standard of integration nor is it a goal for all who live w/ DID or DD.
to each their own. whatever *works* for them.*EXACTLY. And thats partly why I like that my T is new to all this in that she doesn't have alot of pre-conceived notions, and will listen to me when I tell her 'its not so!'.
I beleive diff people have diff awareness, diff experiences, diff levels, it a broad topic....>Do you think the T's can fully understand it.
** I dunno. I *think* my T is *starting* to get it, but then she will say or do something and I realize that maybe she don't :-(
But she is TRYING and willing to learn, and I think she will be able to help others with what she is learning. So I dunno if she can ever *get* it, hell *I* don't really get it! I still deny...>I am not sure who all is underneath everything. When I tried alone maybe that wasn't smart to access my suppressed memories I hit something that felt like a physical wall.So I realized there is alot down deep I am not aware of and if off limits to me. If I can't access it how can a T?
**yeah, I thinks its better to leave it alone....
When the time is right, and ALL of you is ready, then mebbe you can deal with stuff if neccessary. Maybe you can all just get calm and get along and you will never have to go 'there'....>I have lost lots of time in the past so who knows whats in the memory banks. I don't know everything. My sister and I have slowly begun talking to each other and she will tell me something that happened she remembers and I have no recollection of it and I am 10 years older than her so I should remember it if she does. It is almost like I wasn't even there all those years.
**Yup, my sisters tell me stuff, and sometimes when they tell me, I can remember bits...but not unless its told to me, so I'm not sure,,,but mostly its just a big blank.
>So thats is why I have been thinking maybe all that is better left alone, not integrated because I think I would have to bring someone up to the surface to get to it and they don't want to play right now that is obvious. So for now if it aint too broke...........and part of me thinks it is for my protection.**thats where I am at right now. Just let sleeping dogs lie. Just try and achieve inner peace w/o digging around.
>People in general are iffy........even my family can be iffy. I am not always sure I think T can help unless they have been thru it. But I guess that is wrong
**All families got their sh*t. Some gots more than others :-( Mine was OK.
ALOT of what I have learned I have learned on my own, my T is just a sounding board I guess, and support to make me feel safer. She helps with the day to day stuff, and teaches me how to be more stable. And much of what she has taught me has helped many parts of me over time.
So my T always says that we are learning TOGETHER, and thats nice, cuz then I don't feel so alone. And she SO damn good at the unconditional acceptance thing, that has helped alot. And her stability(even tho she seems to be away alot-she is always 'there' for me, she comes back)has been very helpful. She has been willing to go outdoors with me, and that was SO important in the beginning(she'd bring her dogs!They great T's! :-) Her flexibilty is useful to me.
AND she got FLAWS!!!! LOVE her flaws, cuz then I don't feel like I goto be so perfect either. So while she got good and problem points, she a good fit for me at this time.
So I hope RS that you can find a T that 'fits', cuz its been so very helpful to me.
That was a LONG post!
But this stuff is SO important to me.
It feels SO good to talk about it.
Thanks to all.
M
poster:muffled
thread:786468
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20070929/msgs/786622.html