Posted by MoBe on December 27, 2009, at 14:38:14
In reply to Re: Remeron and mouth symptoms, posted by bleauberry on December 27, 2009, at 6:13:12
> "mouth symptoms"; "white coating on tongue"; "gums feel swollen".
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> Excellent description.
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> Many doctors do not give it credence as a bonafide condition. But all over the internet are thousands of stories of candida overgrowth, symptoms, signs, causes, and cures. Out of the 10 or so doctors I have seen in the last 15 years, only 3 of them rated this a very common undiagnosed condition especially when psychiatric symptoms are present as well. In a number of case studies, candida itself turned out to be the cause of the depression in the first place. Dealing with it allowed the successful weaning off antidepressants.
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> I am not at all suggesting that path, only to say that what you have described is fairly classic of yeast/fungal overgrowth. The causes are dry mouth, sugars in the diet, and stress, all of which give the normal populations of yeast an advantage in setting up shop. Normally our own friendly bacteria keep them in small numbers. But they are highly opportunistic. Give them an inch they'll take a mile.
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> No one has ever studied what various psych drugs do to our friendly bacteria in the intestines that keep yeast in small populations. Is remeron toxic to our friendly gut flora? No way to know. Is it helpful to them? I doubt that very much. But we don't know.
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> If my take is correct, a formal lab diagnosis is not easy. There is a test that measures byproducts of yeast in the urine. Elevated amounts are present when there is a problem, only miniscule amounts when not. Diagnosis is usually an educated hunch or clinical symptoms. The white coating by itself pretty much nails it.
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> Doctors who don't believe are under the misguided assumption that yeast only shows up as a diaper rash, vaginal infection, or jock itch? It can't happen anywhere else? Give me a break. It can't happen in the mouth? The intestines? Throughout the bloodstream? The brain? How do they know? They don't. The ones that do know are very aware of all these things and the crippling wide ranging symptoms.
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> Here's an easy test you can do. I really don't know the accuracy of it, except that when I had suspected candida the test was definitely positive, and after I had been on garlic and diflucan for a couple weeks, all signs of candida were completely gone. The test. First thing in the morning out of bed, spit into a glass of water. Normal spit should just float on top of the water. Candida spit will develop milky trails sinknig to the bottom of the glass. It will happen anywhere from immediately to a few minutes. They will look like curtains or strings. The more there is, the thicker they are, the worse the infection. Normal spit will still be sitting there on top of the water for a long time, with no milky trails.
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> Curing the problem is a challenge, because candida is an extremely rapid multiplier and quite tenacious once it has been established. It takes a comprehensive attack with meds, herbs, and diet to really knock it out for good.
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> For meds, you want Diflucan first choice, Diflucan and Nystatin second choice, Nystatin alone third choice. For herbs you want Oil of Oregano, garlic extracts WITH the odor (not the de-odorized ones), or a raw garlic clove chewed up (not cooked) each night, grapefruit seed extract, pau d'arco tea, caprylic acid, or any combination. The meds work best with any of the herbs added.
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> You probably had a candida situation all along. The dry mouth from remeron made it easy for the good bacteria to die off and easy for candida to take over.
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> For diet it will be important to avoid all forms of sugar and artificial sugar (except Stevia), for a month or so to really kill this thing.
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> Taking a high dose high quality refrigerated probiotic every day is paramount. You can even open a capsule, mix the powder in water, and swish it around in your mouth before swallowing so as to give the good bacteria an immediate deposit in their new home (your mouth). One of their functions is to provide a barrier and a defense from candida taking over. The rest will do their magic in your intestines, where the problem is probably even worse than your mouth.
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> This is not just a dry mouth thing. Most people who had candida and got rid of it report significant improvements in mood, energy, clear headedness, and sleep.
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> If your doctor doesn't know about it or agree with it, just politely request several weeks of Diflucan for a trial. There is on harm in that and no reason not to. If he refuses, you can do two things. First, realize you probably need a more up-to-date doctor. Second, you have some very potent herbs at our disposal.
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> Once this thing is knocked down, it will be very important to continue with the probiotics every day, and to only consume small amounts of sugar. You'll have to always be aware that the dry mouth is going to give them an opportune place to come back, so probiotics and low sugar will keep that from happening again.
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> > I have been on mirtazapine, the generic form of Remeron for quite some time now. However, lately, I have developed some strange "mouth" symptoms. My mouth sometimes feels dry, and my gums feel swollen. I find this particularly odd because although I've had a somewhat dry mouth, it has been tolerable. Within the last 6 months, it has become almost unbearable. My gums feel swollen and tongue has a white coat to it. I've gone through I don't know how many dry mouth products without much success. Neither my dentist nor my Doctor have been able to offer any suggestions that offer sustained releif. Other than discontinuing the medication, which I am reluctant to do because it helps me sleep so well; does anyone have any other suggestions?
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> Thank you for all the information. Both my doctor and my periodontist do not think it is yeast. I have asked. Without the diagnosis, I don't think I can get my hands on an antibiotic for fungal infection. However, I can get my hands on Nystatin for the fungal infections "down below". I don't think I can use this for oral care. However, I will be able to try many of your suggestions. The probiotics will be easy, the giving up of sugar also easy. I will investigate getting my hands on the other items. Thanks again for your help.
poster:MoBe
thread:931060
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20091227/msgs/931117.html