Posted by Adam on May 31, 2000, at 20:56:45
In reply to Are we done yet?, posted by boBB on May 31, 2000, at 19:50:51
Well, to move the debate along, boBB, I haven't found your posts to be offensive so much as, at times,
inscrutable and a little in-your-face. More careful reading would have solved some of those problems, and
as for other problems, well, I don't know.I guess the question might go back to the very nature of this board as Dr. Bob's space, ultimately. I have
no problem with that. If he makes the rules, they haven't gotten in my way of making very good use of this
space, primarily gathering and sharing information, and getting or giving a little emotional support now
and then.I suppose philosophical debates and the resultant polemics have sprung up from time to time. It would
appear that the vast majority of such discourse has met the standard of "civility". So again I say, what
cause have we to complain, and what should make us think it is not our privilege but our right to post
whatever we want in any manner we want here?Also, YOU won't reveal your identity. Why should Dr. Bob reveal the identities of those he disagrees with?
You claim to divulge personal information would threaten your life. Fair enough. For Dr. Bob to name
names in this forum might threaten his livelihood, and, by extension, the very existance of this board. We
are taking the rather prodigious leap of faith that you are some kind of vigilante warrior. How big of a
leap is it to suppose some doctors don't see eye to eye, or that their identities should be any of our
business?So, yeah, I'm done debating what should be done with your feelings. Anyway, you seem to be saying that
the best way to be your friend is to go get my ass kicked for the cause. Since I have quite literally
gotten my ass kicked on numerous occasions, sometimes just for standing up for myself, I guess we are
somehow on a similar plain (if I may be so bold), though not in the same echelon.Now, SECURITY: It seems there is a desire not so much to censor as to regulate, rationalize, and protect.
That means when I post, I can't go around spewing hateful filth, whatever I post others know who posted it
to some extent, and that somebody else can't go around using my name to post stuff that I didn't say. I'm
having a difficult time finding anything unreasonable about this. True, I might lose the ability to post
as Eve whenever I wanted, and this might cramp my style a little, but I've endured worse in life, and it's
most readily evident that so have you.Again, lets all not be paranoid, or misplace our trust: A registration system for Psychobabble might
actually IMPROVE our security (if implemented the right way) and make the majority of us happier to post
here without having any negative impact on our ability to express whatever we want. There is an enormous
amount of information out there on us already just waiting for someone to mine it. Given a realistic cost-
benefit analysis, does giving out our name, email address, and a small fee to Psychobabble amount to such
an unacceptable compromise of our security that the idea should be abandoned? After all, the mere fact
that we have posted here may mean that this information is already available to those who wish to look,
depending on how careful we have been to cover our tracks.So, how careful have you been up to now?
> Dr. Bob wrote: “Please try not to say anything that could be taken as accusatory”
>
> Dr. Bob wrote: “And some doctors probably have outdated ideas....”
>
> Dr. Bob wrote: “Some doctors are probably afraid of how their patients would react....”
>
> I ask: Which doctors? Would it be libelous if Dr. Bob named these doctors, and published these allegations of specific licensed physicians? Even so, boBB would likely defend Dr. Bob’s right to criticize. But could we please allow those doctors to respond?
> __________________________________
>
> Someone asked boBB how he feels, and he replied honestly. Someone politely offered further nonjudgmental listening, which boBB declined, attempting instead to briefly explain his personal method of coping, and his personal sense of hope. Succinctly, boBB wrote: “Its not about me.”
>
> boBB wrote, “I find satisfaction sharing their suffering,”
>
> Compassion is derived from words meaning “to suffer with.” It is defined in a modern dictionary as sharing a feeling of sorrow. boBB sincerely related that the best way to show compassion toward him is to direct it elsewhere. That is the ONLY way ANYONE can share boBB’s sorrow, and because boBB does not feel not sorry for himself.
>
> boBB said he is lonely, poor and tired. boBB grew up singing songs every Sunday that said “I am weak, I am poor, I am blind.” Despite this endless thread in reaction to his honesty and to his expression of a growing weariness of living (aging?), boBB is not sorry to have been boBB, to have been human, to have been animal, and to have been muddy, confused dirt writhing with DNA. That is human.
>
> But someone quickly replied again: “wouldn't you be more effective as an advocate of the downtrodden if you were relieved of some of your suffering....if you were healthy and strong and could mobilize your convictions and anger more effectively?”
>
> boBB again wrote, more emphatically, but patiently: “It's not about me. Drop it."
>
> After twice being asked to leave it alone, the same person replied: “I was talking about allowing yourself to ...( meet emotional needs, after boBB explicitly explained how he meets his emotional needs)...that if you did so, maybe you would actually have more strength....”
>
> After repeated unwanted analysis of boBB’s needs and his health he wrote “*IF* you don't want to see how I feel *I suggest...*”
>
> That was not a threat by any legal standard. It is an obviously allegorical and impractical suggestion to a person who is either healthy enough to understand it, perhaps too unfamiliar with therapeutic methods to offer qualified advice to an unreceptive client, or determined to impose advice on people even after they repeatedly declined. boBB’s statement is crudely patterned after a category of therapeutic techniques that involve imagined exaggeration of a symptom or a reaction to a symptom. It is expressed in a rhetorical style has been in use for 2,000 years.
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> The resident pharmacist wrote: “I, myself would risk the aggression/violence/suicidal side effects of medications; if only to enjoy a nice sunny day.”
>
> He offered a well qualified analysis that such side effects might result from as many as one in ten administrations of certain psychotropic medications “Yes, I agree that some people (about 10%) do get akasthesia-like or aggression as a side effect of a number of medications.”
>
> Dr. Bob wrote: “please don't suggest that anyone do anything self-destructive.”
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
> • a doctor accuses other unnamed doctors of poor judgment
> • a pharmacist says he would risk suicide or violence to enjoy a sunny day.
> • a working journalist sincerely asks a person requesting that a journalist share his worst feelings to direct their sincere concern elsewhere, if only for the purpose of further relieving the journalist’s suffering.
> • another poster, who declines to disclose their occupation, repeatedly posts unwanted personal advice to the journalist, even after the journalist three times says no.
> _____________________________
>
> What the rules now seem to say is “Please, correctly anticipate and adhere to Dr. Bob’s definition of civility. Do not refer to popular culture as a guide to acceptable speech.”
>
> But the rules here also seem to infer that any contributors who do not anticipate Dr. Bob’s definition of civility are not civil. He is saying that his values and his definition of civility is so universal that anyone here should anticipate which accusations are appropriate, which acceptances of suicidal risk or violence are appropriate, and which common rhetorical devices are inappropriate. No doubt, to enforce such a self-styled system, he needs a registration and screening process.
>
> I am saying my statements were typically civil by the standards of many communities I frequent. A registration would do little to prevent someone intent on disrupting this board. If anyone was intent on acting uncivil here, there are disruptive tactics a person could use simply by operating the board as it is now arranged, or with a registration system - by clicking the right buttons, over and over. Obviously, I am not using these tactics, nor continuing to make the kind of statements that seem to violate Dr. Bob’s rules, unless the rules are going to be redefined again next week.
>
> We don’t have concrete barriers down the middle of most highways - we have various yellow and white lines, which most of us understand and follow, even when we are a little upset. We can trust people to generally be civil, if we don’t presume to dictate a narrow definition of civility and if we show some patience while a constantly changing community continually negotiates a common definition.
>
> If Dr. Bob chooses to further restrict use of this board at this time, this archive will remain. Generations of sociology grad students will enjoy the opportunity to analyze the dialogue that preceded such a move.
poster:Adam
thread:34648
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000526/msgs/35442.html